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  • #61
    Originally posted by Blazingwaddles View Post
    RahRah Can I ask why after visiting Nine Mile Hole do you feel even more certain that it wasn't there? I'm trying to compare my raw impression (without considering the treasure hunt) of the locale to that of others.
    Sure.

    To me it's a force fit, there is nothing elegant about it, nor anything that makes me think "why didn't I think of that?" There is no sage. There is no view of mountains. The idea that this is it because fishing with his dad and because, because, brown trout? Laughable. But, but, but, he had a chapter "In Love with Yellowstone" dammit, it must be there! Nope. One can make it fit, but that doesn't mean it is the spot. And it wasn't the spot.

    The idea that the area must be protected to prevent so many from trampling it, that the area isn't designed for that many people - that's preposterous. First, if that many people brave crossing the river, good on them, but there's nothing to see.

    And now we've got a contingent bent on Fairy Falls? WHAT? If it was Nine Mile Hole, why is Fairy Falls now so enticing? Before that it was some convaluted latitude/longitude hidden in the poem.

    None of them are correct. NONE

    It wasn't in Yellowstone NP. Of that, I'm sure.

    Lost Time is never found again. - Benjamin Franklin​

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by voxpops View Post

      It's been years since I watched that interview, and thanks for reminding me of it. That is a laugh-out-loud moment where he's talking absolute hogwash about the Coriolis force - and that's the reason people drive on the left in London and on the right in New York!!! I have no idea why he would do that, but keep an absolutely deadpan expression. What is he trying to say? I can make you believe whatever I want??? I don't know - what's your take, Blazingwaddles?

      Edit:
      Having glanced at the Wikipedia entry for the Coriolis effect, I would hazard a guess that he's trying to draw attention to the flight and/or military implications . . . oh, and circles.
      Precisely! These are the questions that need to be asked to complete the chase that FF teased us into! Why indeed! The first time I encountered this weird performance, I dismissed it as Forrest being a bit dull in some aspects of science. He simply got it wrong, not just plainly wrong like those who think water swirls down the drain the opposite direction in the southern hemisphere, but spectacularly wrong. And I never thought about this strange episode again for a long, long time.

      Until I happened to rewatch that video one day. And then I noticed one thing, then another, then another. Telltale facial signs and body language that he was lying ... or at least pulling our leg. And so for the first time I asked. WHY would he do that?!?

      Thus began a journey of enlightment and amazement that is very far along today but probably not completed. Anyone can join, you start by asking a 3-letter question.

      The answer took a while for me. I hate to spell it out like this every time because there is magic in discovering it yourself, but I can't see a betterr way (or any way for that matter) to encourage others to seek beyond the searchfor a treasure chest full of gold. I seek a treasure that is intellectual.

      It is not important he was talking about the Coriolis effect. That has no bearing whatsoever on helping to solve the poem. What it does is help you figure out WHY he got it wrong. First, he was a fighter pilot, and perhaps only artillery crews among non-scientists are more familiar with the rotational effect of the Earth on linear trajectories in the atmosphere. So out of all the mysteries of nature that Forrest could have explained, the Coriolis effect was something we should know he is not going to get wrong. More wrong than some random person? No chance.

      Second, he wove this explanation into a story about admonishing an overconfident searcher who claimed to have everything figured out (because he and his son were outside all the time!). There is a reason WHY Forrest constantly returned to this meme of a searcher who knows it all or who tries to outsmart Forrest. And in every instance Forrest uses his wit to prevail over this searcher full of hubris. In this instance he lectures the know-it-all father and son with such preposterous authority that they end up looking foolish for believing the performance. The magic, of course, is that Forrest is doing the very same thing to his audience, the search community. We ALL are the know-it-all father and son full of hubris because we too have fallen for the performance. We haven't thought deeply or tried to figure anything out but instead made assumptions according to our own human biases and limited perspectives.

      Third, it is very simple and straightforward to find out about the actual Coriolis effect and thereby figure out that Forrest was talking nonsense. But instead, what people will do is blindly start fumblimg for hints among the words. Some will start to suspect that ants circling tree trunks is part of the solve. Others will search for roads where the traffic pattern gets reversed. Or flight/military implications, perhaps circles. All wrong.

      What they won't pay attention to at all is the autobiographical stuff that Forrest mentions during the same conversation. And that is the fourth part of his master performance: hiding the solution in plain sight with such lack of presumption and gumption that it is just about impossible to consider the possibility. After all, we are looking for clues and subtle hints. Why would we care that he actually said, just before the Coriolis performance: "the fun is in doing it, I can't remember how many times that I could hardly wait in Yellowstone to go trout fishing on the Madisom River (note = "Alpha"), the Gallatin, the Firehole, the Gibbon, the Yellowstone, and I'd rush out there; it was so beautiful, I would just sit under a tree for an hour just watching the osprey catch fish, it's so wonderful to be out in the mountains."

      What he is doing here is winking at us ... the wink being the Coriolis performance that he knows everybody will take not as a hint to think but as the bait to hang ourselves with our own rope woven from assumptions. Meanwhile he just outright tells us the actual location where he hid the treasure! And he does this exact same thing over and over again and thereby bores us and makes us deaf. We haven't heard him all, and certainly we have not listened good.

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by voxpops View Post
        Knowledge says:
        "Remember this you were told the place and you and others couldn't see it"

        Tim (ZosoRocks) says:
        "Again, you see what you are only want to see."

        I don't think you both together could have illustrated the problem any clearer. If you'd like to sort it out between you and let me know who's got the correct facts, that would be extremely helpful . In the meantime I can only continue to ask whether we're all barking up the wrong tree . . .

        Thanks to trueyeti and Not4but242Walk for their psychologically nuanced arguments (even if they are still making much the same sort of claim, but nicely veiled! ). I found your post interesting to read, trueyeti as, right or wrong in your spot, you recognize an added depth to the chase.
        Hey V,
        Responding to various thread comments now... not fluent in putting in those markers of people as you are... Anyway...about the aspen trees...yeah yeah yeah... but the treasure chest was buried under only one of those trees. IMO... the story of that, “particular tree” is the winning solve. That's the "full story" and the penultimate explanation that provides the answers that everyone is looking for. Therefore, the chest location has a story attached to it... it represents a story with a meaning that answers everyone's questions... that provides all the "answers I already know."

        I'm thinking about Scrapbook 107.... working up to a post hopefully soon. Just want to say something in the context of this thread and that is that Forrest spent a lot of time on his treasure hunt. He put his time, money, and effort into the chase.... and his Love. It was his passion. IMO... he spent a lot of time at the location over the decades. A thought entered him, and it was planted, then it germinated over time, and IMO... grew from there over a long period of time. Time/money/effort/Love. IMO... he finished the poem before he hid it because he knew the area so well.

        IMO the "aspen tree" (symbolic), where he hid the chest is the culmination of the entire "hidden story" that you are alluding to. IMO, within in that story (the 9-Clues), he used the lens of his life stories/Scrapbooks/etc al., as a symbolification of the location. IMO, the location itself also has symbolism that ties into much larger concepts. Therefore.... he is metaphorically like the horse "Hidalgo" in the movie, who at the end of his adventures is released into a heard of wild horses. The horse's story having made an impact on the viewer... he is returned to whence he came... back into "eternity." (Metaphorically).

        The winning solve explains the winning tree. But the journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step. IMO... that first step is "Brown." If you don't have the correct Brown, then you’re not barking up the "winning tree." All of Forrest's answers in such a solve (the wrong tree) can't be known. Can Brown be presented in such a way that the burden of proof is achieved with a greater than 50% chance of being true? If so... then there is a good argument that might persuade more than 50% of people that you are onto the correct Brown. But there will always remain the other 50% of people.... Even if you have every t crossed and every i dotted.... there will always exist naysayers, even if Hitchen's razor is fulfilled. Even if you brought home a bronze jar with the 20,000 word autobiography... there will be detractors.

        IMO, a hundred scholars could spend a thousand days working diligently, sifting through all of what Forrest has said/written, or you could put an AI program to work and using algorithms come up with the correct "aspen tree," but even if you did, there would be those who remain.... unconvinced.

        IMO, Brown is the most important clue. That is the first step in the journey of a thousand miles. And looking back at the end of that journey under the "winning aspen tree," you would have a million stories about the stops along the way and they would coincide/match Forrest's stories with the location of where he hid the chest....and that IMO is the bigger picture to which folks refer. Simply put, the winning solve is the winning tree that provides “the answers I already know.” But despite having the answers there would be those who disregard “Hitchen’s razor.” Scrapbook 107 is titled “People just don’t Understand,” after all. Maybe that's where the saying "barking up the wrong tree" comes from. Cheers.

        Last edited by trueyeti; 09-26-2022, 07:36 PM.

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by Blazingwaddles View Post

          Precisely! These are the questions that need to be asked to complete the chase that FF teased us into! Why indeed! The first time I encountered this weird performance, I dismissed it as Forrest being a bit dull in some aspects of science. He simply got it wrong, not just plainly wrong like those who think water swirls down the drain the opposite direction in the southern hemisphere, but spectacularly wrong. And I never thought about this strange episode again for a long, long time.

          Until I happened to rewatch that video one day. And then I noticed one thing, then another, then another. Telltale facial signs and body language that he was lying ... or at least pulling our leg. And so for the first time I asked. WHY would he do that?!?

          Thus began a journey of enlightment and amazement that is very far along today but probably not completed. Anyone can join, you start by asking a 3-letter question.

          The answer took a while for me. I hate to spell it out like this every time because there is magic in discovering it yourself, but I can't see a betterr way (or any way for that matter) to encourage others to seek beyond the searchfor a treasure chest full of gold. I seek a treasure that is intellectual.

          It is not important he was talking about the Coriolis effect. That has no bearing whatsoever on helping to solve the poem. What it does is help you figure out WHY he got it wrong. First, he was a fighter pilot, and perhaps only artillery crews among non-scientists are more familiar with the rotational effect of the Earth on linear trajectories in the atmosphere. So out of all the mysteries of nature that Forrest could have explained, the Coriolis effect was something we should know he is not going to get wrong. More wrong than some random person? No chance.

          Second, he wove this explanation into a story about admonishing an overconfident searcher who claimed to have everything figured out (because he and his son were outside all the time!). There is a reason WHY Forrest constantly returned to this meme of a searcher who knows it all or who tries to outsmart Forrest. And in every instance Forrest uses his wit to prevail over this searcher full of hubris. In this instance he lectures the know-it-all father and son with such preposterous authority that they end up looking foolish for believing the performance. The magic, of course, is that Forrest is doing the very same thing to his audience, the search community. We ALL are the know-it-all father and son full of hubris because we too have fallen for the performance. We haven't thought deeply or tried to figure anything out but instead made assumptions according to our own human biases and limited perspectives.

          Third, it is very simple and straightforward to find out about the actual Coriolis effect and thereby figure out that Forrest was talking nonsense. But instead, what people will do is blindly start fumblimg for hints among the words. Some will start to suspect that ants circling tree trunks is part of the solve. Others will search for roads where the traffic pattern gets reversed. Or flight/military implications, perhaps circles. All wrong.

          What they won't pay attention to at all is the autobiographical stuff that Forrest mentions during the same conversation. And that is the fourth part of his master performance: hiding the solution in plain sight with such lack of presumption and gumption that it is just about impossible to consider the possibility. After all, we are looking for clues and subtle hints. Why would we care that he actually said, just before the Coriolis performance: "the fun is in doing it, I can't remember how many times that I could hardly wait in Yellowstone to go trout fishing on the Madisom River (note = "Alpha"), the Gallatin, the Firehole, the Gibbon, the Yellowstone, and I'd rush out there; it was so beautiful, I would just sit under a tree for an hour just watching the osprey catch fish, it's so wonderful to be out in the mountains."

          What he is doing here is winking at us ... the wink being the Coriolis performance that he knows everybody will take not as a hint to think but as the bait to hang ourselves with our own rope woven from assumptions. Meanwhile he just outright tells us the actual location where he hid the treasure! And he does this exact same thing over and over again and thereby bores us and makes us deaf. We haven't heard him all, and certainly we have not listened good.
          That is one of the best posts I've read in a long time, Blazingwaddles! Thanks for the insightful and comprehensive answer - you clearly thought very deeply about that interview. I wonder whether Jack had similar thoughts.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by trueyeti View Post

            Hey V,
            Responding to various thread comments now... not fluent in putting in those markers of people as you are... Anyway...about the aspen trees...yeah yeah yeah... but the treasure chest was buried under only one of those trees. IMO... the story of that, “particular tree” is the winning solve. That's the "full story" and the penultimate explanation that provides the answers that everyone is looking for. Therefore, the chest location has a story attached to it... it represents a story with a meaning that answers everyone's questions... that provides all the "answers I already know."

            I'm thinking about Scrapbook 107.... working up to a post hopefully soon. Just want to say something in the context of this thread and that is that Forrest spent a lot of time on his treasure hunt. He put his time, money, and effort into the chase.... and his Love. It was his passion. IMO... he spent a lot of time at the location over the decades. A thought entered him, and it was planted, then it germinated over time, and IMO... grew from there over a long period of time. Time/money/effort/Love. IMO... he finished the poem before he hid it because he knew the area so well.

            IMO the "aspen tree" (symbolic), where he hid the chest is the culmination of the entire "hidden story" that you are alluding to. IMO, within in that story (the 9-Clues), he used the lens of his life stories/Scrapbooks/etc al., as a symbolification of the location. IMO, the location itself also has symbolism that ties into much larger concepts. Therefore.... he is metaphorically like the horse "Hidalgo" in the movie, who at the end of his adventures is released into a heard of wild horses. The horse's story having made an impact on the viewer... he is returned to whence he came... back into "eternity." (Metaphorically).

            The winning solve explains the winning tree. But the journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step. IMO... that first step is "Brown." If you don't have the correct Brown, then you’re not barking up the "winning tree." All of Forrest's answers in such a solve (the wrong tree) can't be known. Can Brown be presented in such a way that the burden of proof is achieved with a greater than 50% chance of being true? If so... then there is a good argument that might persuade more than 50% of people that you are onto the correct Brown. But there will always remain the other 50% of people.... Even if you have every t crossed and every i dotted.... there will always exist naysayers, even if Hitchen's razor is fulfilled. Even if you brought home a bronze jar with the 20,000 word autobiography... there will be detractors.

            IMO, a hundred scholars could spend a thousand days working diligently, sifting through all of what Forrest has said/written, or you could put an AI program to work and using algorithms come up with the correct "aspen tree," but even if you did, there would be those who remain.... unconvinced.

            IMO, Brown is the most important clue. That is the first step in the journey of a thousand miles. And looking back at the end of that journey under the "winning aspen tree," you would have a million stories about the stops along the way and they would coincide/match Forrest's stories with the location of where he hid the chest....and that IMO is the bigger picture to which folks refer. Simply put, the winning solve is the winning tree that provides “the answers I already know.” But despite having the answers there would be those who disregard “Hitchen’s razor.” Scrapbook 107 is titled “People just don’t Understand,” after all. Maybe that's where the saying "barking up the wrong tree" comes from. Cheers.

            Thanks for taking the time to write that - it has a certain "romance" to it, if I may say so! I also think the home of Brown is very important, but I'm not sure it can be proven without something so utterly convincing that you'd need to be living on another planet not to recognize it. But, hey, that's drawing me back into solve territory, and I really don't want to go there. If you believe in your solve and can live with people not understanding it, you've cracked the puzzle in many respects, IMO.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by RahRah View Post

              Sure.

              To me it's a force fit, there is nothing elegant about it, nor anything that makes me think "why didn't I think of that?" There is no sage. There is no view of mountains. The idea that this is it because fishing with his dad and because, because, brown trout? Laughable. But, but, but, he had a chapter "In Love with Yellowstone" dammit, it must be there! Nope. One can make it fit, but that doesn't mean it is the spot. And it wasn't the spot.

              The idea that the area must be protected to prevent so many from trampling it, that the area isn't designed for that many people - that's preposterous. First, if that many people brave crossing the river, good on them, but there's nothing to see.

              And now we've got a contingent bent on Fairy Falls? WHAT? If it was Nine Mile Hole, why is Fairy Falls now so enticing? Before that it was some convaluted latitude/longitude hidden in the poem.

              None of them are correct. NONE

              It wasn't in Yellowstone NP. Of that, I'm sure.
              Yes, I think the whole YNP thing is a kind of red herring . . . but maybe also a pointer to the "beyond" - the other discoveries that are yet to be revealed.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by voxpops View Post

                Yes, I think the whole YNP thing is a kind of red herring . . . but maybe also a pointer to the "beyond" - the other discoveries that are yet to be revealed.
                Agree!
                Lost Time is never found again. - Benjamin Franklin​

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by voxpops View Post

                  That is one of the best posts I've read in a long time, Blazingwaddles! Thanks for the insightful and comprehensive answer - you clearly thought very deeply about that interview. I wonder whether Jack had similar thoughts.
                  Much of my thinking on this was synthesized from statements by Forrest and Jack so I'd be surprised if the latter's views are highly incongruous with the above. In hindsight it's much easier to make connections including those that don't really exist, so he might be more circumspect about taking it too far. I'm most curious about whether or not he came to the same conclusion as me that Forrest always "winked" in a metaphorical sense when he dangled a hint or useful answer.
                  Last edited by Blazingwaddles; 09-26-2022, 11:51 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by mountain digger

                    Do you mean images in the book?
                    images in the book are just little aberrations. those will help but no I'm talking about hidden images within the poem. you fill in the o's and connect the dots in a certain way and it reveals hidden images.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by RahRah View Post

                      Sure.

                      To me it's a force fit, there is nothing elegant about it, nor anything that makes me think "why didn't I think of that?" There is no sage. There is no view of mountains. The idea that this is it because fishing with his dad and because, because, brown trout? Laughable. But, but, but, he had a chapter "In Love with Yellowstone" dammit, it must be there! Nope. One can make it fit, but that doesn't mean it is the spot. And it wasn't the spot.

                      The idea that the area must be protected to prevent so many from trampling it, that the area isn't designed for that many people - that's preposterous. First, if that many people brave crossing the river, good on them, but there's nothing to see.

                      And now we've got a contingent bent on Fairy Falls? WHAT? If it was Nine Mile Hole, why is Fairy Falls now so enticing? Before that it was some convaluted latitude/longitude hidden in the poem.

                      None of them are correct. NONE

                      It wasn't in Yellowstone NP. Of that, I'm sure.
                      This is why I asked. It probably takes a complete change in perspective to see it. Of course there are mountains at Nine Mile Hole, they tower over the canyon. There is sage as well, though it's not expansive to be fair.

                      The location isn't uniquely special because Forrest fished there with his father. It is special for that reason, sure, as would be other sentimental places. It is doubly special because that is where he crossed the Madison and went into the wilderness alone to see, explore and enjoy nature, sitting under a pine tree watching the osprey dive for fish. Climbing to higher ground, where just about nobody ever went, gave him a view that made him feel a bit like Osborne Russell gazing out over his "Secluded Valley".

                      But that still didn't make the spot uniquely special, why he wanted to die there. This was a deeply personal reason and we will never know for sure what it was. And that is just as well. I have a good guess, and it is totally the way Forrest thinks, but that is for another time.

                      I do agree with you that the reason given for keeping the hiding location a secret is a joke. The Park could easily close off the area to offtrail use as it does for other areas impacted by ezcessive foot traffic. Sure some scofflaws would ignore that but it would keep the majority of rubber neckers at bay. My thinking is that Jack and Forrest actually used the threat of revealing the location as a pawn im negotiating an agreement not to be pursued legally for the (arguably minor) infringement of abandoning personal property inside a NP and then not turning it in after it had been found.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Blazingwaddles View Post

                        This is why I asked. It probably takes a complete change in perspective to see it. Of course there are mountains at Nine Mile Hole, they tower over the canyon. There is sage as well, though it's not expansive to be fair.

                        The location isn't uniquely special because Forrest fished there with his father. It is special for that reason, sure, as would be other sentimental places. It is doubly special because that is where he crossed the Madison and went into the wilderness alone to see, explore and enjoy nature, sitting under a pine tree watching the osprey dive for fish. Climbing to higher ground, where just about nobody ever went, gave him a view that made him feel a bit like Osborne Russell gazing out over his "Secluded Valley".

                        But that still didn't make the spot uniquely special, why he wanted to die there. This was a deeply personal reason and we will never know for sure what it was. And that is just as well. I have a good guess, and it is totally the way Forrest thinks, but that is for another time.

                        I do agree with you that the reason given for keeping the hiding location a secret is a joke. The Park could easily close off the area to offtrail use as it does for other areas impacted by ezcessive foot traffic. Sure some scofflaws would ignore that but it would keep the majority of rubber neckers at bay. My thinking is that Jack and Forrest actually used the threat of revealing the location as a pawn im negotiating an agreement not to be pursued legally for the (arguably minor) infringement of abandoning personal property inside a NP and then not turning it in after it had been found.
                        We'll have to agree to disagree....Nine Mile Hole isn't the spot.
                        Lost Time is never found again. - Benjamin Franklin​

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by RahRah View Post

                          We'll have to agree to disagree....Nine Mile Hole isn't the spot.
                          I agree. The spot is where he went to sit under a pine tree to rest, watch nature and possibly do something that teenage boys prefer to do alone.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Trailblazer99 View Post

                            images in the book are just little aberrations. those will help but no I'm talking about hidden images within the poem. you fill in the o's and connect the dots in a certain way and it reveals hidden images.
                            Hey Tb,
                            I disagree. The image of the ax-man in the field of stumps and the bird in the moon.... In the image the man (IMO Forrest), has performed a lot of work. He has cut down those trees, resulting in stumps and he is now at rest with his foot on the top of one of those stumps.... fits perfectly with "I've done it tired and now am weak."

                            What has he "done?" (I've done it tired).... Worked very hard in chopping down the trees...
                            Why is he "tired?" (and now am weak).... now he's resting up against a stump to help him stand, because he's tired, because he's weak...

                            Anyway, Cheers.
                            Last edited by trueyeti; 09-27-2022, 02:52 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by trueyeti View Post

                              Hey Tb,
                              I disagree. The image of the ax-man in the field of stumps and the bird in the moon.... In the image the man (IMO Forrest), has performed a lot of work. He has cut down those trees, resulting in stumps and he is now at rest with his foot on the top of one of those stumps.... fits perfectly with "I've done it tired and now am weak."

                              What has he "done?" (I've done it tired).... Worked very hard in chopping down the trees...
                              Why is he "tired?" (and now am weak).... now he's resting up against a stump to help him stand, because he's tired, because he's weak...

                              Anyway, Cheers.
                              This is a conservation image. The bird has to nest on the moon since earth has no more uncut trees on it. Hence a protected wilderness theme.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Not4but242Walk View Post

                                This is a conservation image. The bird has to nest on the moon since earth has no more uncut trees on it. Hence a protected wilderness theme.
                                Hey Not4,
                                I agree... and I disagree. The image is "artwork," and is therefor open to interpretation. Yours is valid. Artwork is symbolific in function. (Both metaphorical and literal in some instances). IMO... if the observer/searcher is at a location that has the elements on the ground that are represented in the artwork, then the searcher would be quickened.... If you found a location that had all of those elements, then would you not reconsider your interpretations? Remembering that Forrest said, "indecision is the key to flexibility," it is wise for us to keep our minds open until we have good reason to accept or deny any symbolism/meaning of that artwork...IMO...cheers.

                                Comment

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