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  • #31
    Originally posted by JEffjeFF View Post

    I know this is a recently resurrected thread, but just figured I'll update that kpro said in her show that Shiloh told her he knows the location and solution. I believe her, and I don't see why he'd lie about it.
    Yes but every day things develop. I don't think he will be including it in his book. Sad horn.
    “Positivity triumphs over negativity” - famous quote by the famous Cowlazars 2018

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Knowledge View Post
      There is no way that the solution can be copyrighted, it would be like owning the directions to someplace. I also love the way people think the US government would step in if someone told the real location. People show others how to build bombs and crack on the internet, they are not going after free speech because of a treasure hunt. People who want the location to be Yellowstone are willing to believe anything other than what Forrest told everyone for years. If you think it took f fifteen years to write his poem and nine mile is all he came up with, good luck with critical thinking in your future. I am amazed at how fast people are willing to forget many things Forrest said, so they can pretend they were close, with their Yellowstone solutions. They are willing to think f lied about the amount of 200-foot searchers and cheated by giving Dal his dad's fishing logs. He lied about how many figured out the first two clues. He cheated by telling searching to look around nine mile. The list goes on and on, and it shows how sheep can be shown anything as long as they see it as the sheepdog telling them they will believe what they are told. If you are not going to trust Forrest Fenn, just say there was no chest. You can't do that can you, so you must pick and choose when he lied and cheated. Everyone here, has been told the real location, and many just do not care. It is about them and even if Forrest said this is the spot, some will live in their solve till they die. All the people who never spoke to the man, have muddied the water so they can pretend they are the solver. I am so sick of walking on eggshells because of people living in delusion.
      Like all works created by an individual - music, lyrics, poetry, inventions, articles, books, etc....copyrights are applied for creativity.

      the solution is a combination of many talents by an individual, so yes, it can be copyrighted, because they created it outside the knowledge of the correct solution - copyrighted by Forrest no doubt.

      Intellectual property is a real thing.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Tim (ZosoRocks) View Post

        Like all works created by an individual - music, lyrics, poetry, inventions, articles, books, etc....copyrights are applied for creativity.

        the solution is a combination of many talents by an individual, so yes, it can be copyrighted, because they created it outside the knowledge of the correct solution - copyrighted by Forrest no doubt.

        Intellectual property is a real thing.
        I think you're conflating the written words inside the olive jar written by F (which his family assumably owns copyright to- though without possession would be impossible to do anything with), with a searchers written words about their solution. Those words could be copy written by the searcher (and are by virtue of publication), though the solution as a series of map locations corresponding to clues cannot be copy written. And even then, another searcher could quote those exact searcher words in a separate written piece if they wanted, as long as they gave credit to the first searcher. I can publish Cicero because no one owns rights to his works, but I cannot publish a Stephen King novel without permission. I could reference it or quote it though- or even, theoretically, "copy" 100% of the ideas using my own words- but I wouldn't want to.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Rose Livingstone View Post

          I think you're conflating the written words inside the olive jar written by F (which his family assumably owns copyright to- though without possession would be impossible to do anything with), with a searchers written words about their solution. Those words could be copy written by the searcher (and are by virtue of publication), though the solution as a series of map locations corresponding to clues cannot be copy written. And even then, another searcher could quote those exact searcher words in a separate written piece if they wanted, as long as they gave credit to the first searcher. I can publish Cicero because no one owns rights to his works, but I cannot publish a Stephen King novel without permission. I could reference it or quote it though- or even, theoretically, "copy" 100% of the ideas using my own words- but I wouldn't want to.
          First off - I have never stated I was talking about the olive jar, so I am not conflating anything.

          i am talking about the solution the solver created to find the location....nothing to do with the olive jar...which I agree is copyrighted by Forrest and family owned.

          You also noticed that I am unsure if the solution - if copyrighted - even belongs to the solver, but clearly, without Forrest's written permission, a solution by Shiloh needs prior approval before use.
          Last edited by Tim (ZosoRocks); 09-22-2022, 02:15 PM. Reason: Typo fix

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          • #35
            Copyright

            https://www.copyright.gov/what-is-copyright/ Copyright is originality and fixation

            Original Works


            Works are original when they are independently created by a human author and have a minimal degree of creativity. Independent creation simply means that you create it yourself, without copying. The Supreme Court has said that, to be creative, a work must have a “spark” and “modicum” of creativity. There are some things, however, that are not creative, like: titles, names, short phrases, and slogans; familiar symbols or designs; mere variations of typographic ornamentation, lettering, or coloring; and mere listings of ingredients or contents. And always keep in mind that copyright protects expression, and never ideas, procedures, methods, systems, processes, concepts, principles, or discoveries.

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            • #36
              The last sentence in your last post is the important sentence.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Old Pilot View Post

                I thought that Forrest had said that nobody other than him knows the location. Maybe Shiloh learned it when instructed by Forrest for the retrieval.
                He did say that, before it was retrieved by whoever retrieved it. After that, one or more people obviously know the location unless he retrieved it himself, which doesn't seem likely. I don't think it's too far fetched to think Forrest told Shiloh where it was after the chase ended.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Rose Livingstone View Post
                  The last sentence in your last post is the important sentence.
                  "Expression" and "discoveries" are both personal.....and not of Forrest.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Tim (ZosoRocks) View Post

                    "Expression" and "discoveries" are both personal.....and not of Forrest.
                    I guess I don't understand why you think a step by step set of instructions on a post it note could be copy written:

                    1Start here
                    2Go here
                    ...
                    9End here

                    Its like a recipe. Pretty sure you can't copyright those because it's just ingredients combined in certain proportions, which is why people keep them super secret.

                    Now if I wrote a book talking about my experience- how I came to my conclusions and what they meant to me and my thoughts on them at the time and over time, that's different. I own that. You can quote it but not without giving proper citation.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Rose Livingstone View Post

                      I guess I don't understand why you think a step by step set of instructions on a post it note could be copy written:

                      1Start here
                      2Go here
                      ...
                      9End here

                      Its like a recipe. Pretty sure you can't copyright those because it's just ingredients combined in certain proportions, which is why people keep them super secret.

                      Now if I wrote a book talking about my experience- how I came to my conclusions and what they meant to me and my thoughts on them at the time and over time, that's different. I own that. You can quote it but not without giving proper citation.
                      I basically agree with all of that.

                      First off - we all are creating our own path. Since we create our own path - normally only through indirect contact with others, primarily on our own - with/without outside influence (choice = Free will) -- all done on our own, why is it that you think I cannot copyright my life? It includes "discoveries" too. LOL

                      But accurate - it is only an expression of my life......

                      I already stated Forrest has the solution copyrighted, right? Why or why not do you think infringement will occur?

                      I also want to stand corrected on the "discovery" side - although I do believe creativity has discovery, but - as this is usually starts with an idea and not an expression (thoughts in a step by step manner with some creativty) - then I will state, I should not have included that afterwards.

                      Thanks for getting me to find that.

                      So in essence, if Shiloh writes a book with the solution, he needs permission to write the solution. Yes?

                      If I write a book with the solution - my solution - unknown that it is Forrest's solution, and is still under my control - because it is a mirror exprrssion of my life.....i cannot copyright it?
                      - now if it matches Forrest's solution....this is the gray area I have teetered on.

                      It is also the gray area you seem to be inquiring on too. Right?

                      Be safe Rose - good to hear from you! ^5s
                      Tim

                      Did that help?

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Old Pilot

                        And some of them could claim to be the Lead Searcher (well, of course, this has already happened). People want "glory", otherwise known as "strokes" or "recognition/acknowledgment".

                        I guess it is in our human nature to want acknowledgment or praise. Yet a wise man once said, "Don't worry when you are not recognized, but strive to be worthy of recognition." -- Abraham Lincoln

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by moveslikejagger View Post


                          I guess it is in our human nature to want acknowledgment or praise. Yet a wise man once said, "Don't worry when you are not recognized, but strive to be worthy of recognition." -- Abraham Lincoln
                          Glory is where you find it...

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Tim (ZosoRocks) View Post

                            So in essence, if Shiloh writes a book with the solution, he needs permission to write the solution. Yes?

                            If I write a book with the solution - my solution - unknown that it is Forrest's solution, and is still under my control - because it is a mirror exprrssion of my life.....i cannot copyright it?
                            - now if it matches Forrest's solution....this is the gray area I have teetered on.

                            It is also the gray area you seem to be inquiring on too. Right?

                            Tim

                            Did that help?
                            Let's say that F solved the Collatz conjecture and wrote his proof in 6pt font and put it in that sealed wax olive jar.
                            Let's say either Jack found it or it was retrieved and in an auction house safe somewhere but the jar has not yet been opened.
                            Let's say F told Shiloh this proof before passing.
                            Let's say you independently also solved the Collatz Conjecture and your proof is 99.9% identical to his.
                            In consecutive order:
                            You publish a book about your solve inside of which is this proof.
                            Shiloh publishes a book about the Chase inside of which is F's proof.
                            The jar which has spent a year in the safe is finally opened.
                            Who will get credit for the solve (and the prize money)?
                            Who will have copyright on the solve?

                            You will get credit for publishing it first and copyright on the surrounding book, but not the Conjecture proof. F will be mentioned and a "debatable evidence has been given for an earlier or concurrent solve" blurb in the Wikipedia article.
                            Shiloh will have copyright to his surrounding book, but not the Conjecture proof. Shiloh (and family) will have copyright to the jar contents, but may never even know what it says if a copy wasn't made, or if the buried jars are never found or if the buried jars have a different text, and the current olive jar owner decides to keep the text private. There are many rare books that the public can't read. It's a shame, but it's true.
                            Anyone can republish the math proof immediately. You were the first to publish it, but you can't "own" a math solve made public.
                            Now, let's say you and F wrote an identical opera at the same time, you published it first, but afterwards the sealed jar is opened with the same opera inside. That would be a hairy situation. Technically you would have copyright, but since F passed jar content copyright to family prior to your publication- it could be argued it was somehow "stolen".
                            Now I'm not a lawyer nor a mathematician able to determine the possibility of independently written identical operas (they'd have more luck with Collatz), so I don't worry too much about these hypotheticals
                            Since F's poem solve is directional, I don't believe it can be copyrighted, but my solve isn't artistically inimitable, so it could be. Turns out I won't need to worry about that anyway.
                            ...just to clear as mud the debate...
                            Last edited by Rose Livingstone; 09-23-2022, 06:19 PM.

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                            • #44
                              If I tell someone how to get from the airport in Laramie to an island on the Laramie river using nothing but landmarks it can't be copyrighted.
                              Maybe the person who solved it was blessed because he was not going to even try. In the end, he saw a 90-year-old man and did not want him to go the way of those French soldiers
                              Or even worse people think he lied and cheated and is not remembered for one of the greatest treasure hunts of all time. With a simple poem and stories he hid hints right in front of people, with a great slide of hand. He gave a lot of people who needed hope, a window of time to find themselves again. A way to hide from their troubles and dream of what might be.
                              Some found nature, and others spoke with family members for the first time in a long time. What started out as therapy for Forrest, turned into healing for many.
                              I only wish he could have had the time to sit in front of the cameras as he showed his hunt broken down chapter by chapter. Maybe someday Forrest will get the credit he earned.
                              Knowledge was the key, but imagination was his true gift.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Rose Livingstone View Post
                                Let's say that F solved the Collatz conjecture and wrote his proof in 6pt font and put it in that sealed wax olive jar.
                                Let's say either Jack found it or it was retrieved and in an auction house safe somewhere but the jar has not yet been opened.
                                Let's say F told Shiloh this proof before passing.
                                Let's say you independently also solved the Collatz Conjecture and your proof is 99.9% identical to his.
                                In consecutive order:
                                You publish a book about your solve inside of which is this proof.
                                Shiloh publishes a book about the Chase inside of which is F's proof.
                                The jar which has spent a year in the safe is finally opened.
                                Who will get credit for the solve (and the prize money)?
                                Who will have copyright on the solve?

                                You will get credit for publishing it first and copyright on the surrounding book, but not the Conjecture proof. F will be mentioned and a "debatable evidence has been given for an earlier or concurrent solve" blurb in the Wikipedia article.
                                Shiloh will have copyright to his surrounding book, but not the Conjecture proof. Shiloh (and family) will have copyright to the jar contents, but may never even know what it says if a copy wasn't made, or if the buried jars are never found or if the buried jars have a different text, and the current olive jar owner decides to keep the text private. There are many rare books that the public can't read. It's a shame, but it's true.
                                Anyone can republish the math proof immediately. You were the first to publish it, but you can't "own" a math solve made public.
                                Now, let's say you and F wrote an identical opera at the same time, you published it first, but afterwards the sealed jar is opened with the same opera inside. That would be a hairy situation. Technically you would have copyright, but since F passed jar content copyright to family prior to your publication- it could be argued it was somehow "stolen".
                                Now I'm not a lawyer nor a mathematician able to determine the possibility of independently written identical operas (they'd have more luck with Collatz), so I don't worry too much about these hypotheticals
                                Since F's poem solve is directional, I don't believe it can be copyrighted, but my solve isn't artistically inimitable, so it could be. Turns out I won't need to worry about that anyway.
                                ...just to clear as mud the debate...
                                Thanks for taking the time to write this up, and explain your perception.

                                You and I agree - the gray area remains.

                                Here is an additional thought you had not mentioned. It plays on if anyone outside of me, ever publishes the correct solution.

                                - I have a solution.
                                - I have already started publishing it in various formats using the same format, but not a complete one
                                - I gave Forrest my solution in paper form and have evidence he accepted it

                                Now he has (and now his estate too) own my solution.... and remember, I have not published a complete solution yet.

                                Let's say, some searcher now has the correct solution - being that they too discovered it on their own...and eagerly publish it to claim...."I did it!" *raising their hands high*

                                Pan to me - if it matches mine, I now have a legitimate defense/prosecution to claim I indeed already had the solution first.
                                - all the while showing the court a "Poorman's Copyight" sealed envelope with the correct solution inside.

                                1. The envelope is a "protection" for me, so would you say otherwise?
                                2. Since we are only making hypothetics, whom do you think has the rights now?

                                ≈===≈==========
                                You know Rose - i actually can think of many other "possibilities" that could change the scenario to be "extreme"....or...some other hypothetical. ..but why?

                                because when I do.... it always tends to bring me back to believe what Forrest ACTUALLY stated.....
                                "What if there is no legal question?" (Maybe he said "legal issue" instead, I don't actually recall). IMO - both nouns with the word legal in front, probably have the same meaning, or they are very similar in definition.

                                ...which somehow.......it always brings me back to two things.....

                                An irrevocable trust signed off by Forrest and the SOLVER (not the finder) - will retain or manage. This seems plausible to me on many levels and actions we have al heard before.

                                Or it leads directly to......

                                Who owns the trust?
                                - it could now reside, probably, a corporation that was ran by Forrest or a board.......San Lazarao LLC? One Horse Land?
                                - Who knows.....it has not directly come to me yet.

                                So in essence.....more thsn likely, ether "group" owns the solution, and will not release it until it is legally transferred with the trust.

                                So yes...I am quite far and outside of any transaction(s).

                                IMO - the gray area of copyrights need not be defined.

                                Because I see that there is no legal issue or question.

                                #IBelieveForrest

                                His MO was generosity.....I do not see anything like a ....
                                "a-ha ! GOTcHA! you owe alot!"

                                Nah...that accentully is foolishness to think he did that. I don't believe he would have.

                                In conclusion....
                                Shiloh cannot write a book without permission.

                                I will not write a book until other pieces fall into place first.

                                Yes. I have thought about this.

                                Be safe Rose.
                                Tim

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