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Was "canyon down" a clue?

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  • Was "canyon down" a clue?

    Forrest said there were 9 clues in the poem. How should we define a clue?

    We know WWWH was the first clue, because he said so.

    There's really no other way to interpret "canyon" other than an actual canyon. Maybe large or small, but a canyon. I don't see room for metaphorical meaning on this one. It seems more like a simple direction. The canyon should be obvious once you found WWWH.

    Things like HOB, and "no place for the meek" seem to fall into the category of actual clues, since there can be many ways to interpret these. We aren't guaranteed to figure out the correct meaning.

    I'd love to know what the actual 9 clues were. Even removing "canyon down", I still seem to end up with more than 9 statements that seem clue-like.

    No doubt, there is a literal creek later on, but that is combined with "heavy loads and water high" to make the clue. I've yet to see a creek in the mountains that I could paddle up, so that statement on its own could be almost any creek.

  • #2
    https://www.hintofriches.com/forum/t...ful-commentary

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    • #3
      Originally posted by ICV. View Post
      I've yet to see a creek in the mountains that I could paddle up, so that statement on its own could be almost any creek.
      Click image for larger version

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      • #4
        Thanks for the link. I never saw this before.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by ICV. View Post
          Forrest said there were 9 clues in the poem. How should we define a clue?

          We know WWWH was the first clue, because he said so.

          There's really no other way to interpret "canyon" other than an actual canyon. Maybe large or small, but a canyon. I don't see room for metaphorical meaning on this one. It seems more like a simple direction. The canyon should be obvious once you found WWWH.

          Things like HOB, and "no place for the meek" seem to fall into the category of actual clues, since there can be many ways to interpret these. We aren't guaranteed to figure out the correct meaning.

          I'd love to know what the actual 9 clues were. Even removing "canyon down", I still seem to end up with more than 9 statements that seem clue-like.

          No doubt, there is a literal creek later on, but that is combined with "heavy loads and water high" to make the clue. I've yet to see a creek in the mountains that I could paddle up, so that statement on its own could be almost any creek.
          Good start for a thread. Thank you for this (increasingly rare) instance of discussing something about the treasure hunt itself.
          I don't agree 100% with what you said, but I'll explain why, okay?

          Forrest, in writing about working at the Totem Cafe, mentioned "deep canyons" in his hands. So maybe "canyon" could, in addition to a real one, refer to something resembling one but not generally called a canyon. I could, for example, imagine wrinkles in one's skin, or a furrowed brow. Or some other place where a rivulet of sweat might run. But generally, I lean toward "canyon" meaning a real topological/natural canyon in the ground, caused either by erosion (i.e., from a river or glacier or water in general or wind), or by an earthquake that once caused a crack in the crust of the earth. I think that using a real canyon (as generally defined) would be a reasonable way to work on a solve. Please do keep in mind that one approach to solving maintains that the "ending" location should be describable as if it were the "starting" location. In this case, WWWH is the description . . . but should -- in my opinion -- be further qualified by having something (at least kinda) nearby that is canyon-like. (I wonder whether the typical drawing/sketch of a "broken heart" might provide the visual for this . . . at least in one's imagination.)

          Briefly summarizing, I believe that "canyon down" is a very (if not critically) important part of the poem, and should not be dismissed/ignored. Whether "canyon down" by itself is an entire clue (one of nine) may not be all that important. Who's counting clues? Not me. Who's defining them? Not me. But I am taking extreme care to not ignore/dismiss any part of the poem, including capitalization and also including punctuation. Any/all of this posting is part of my opinion.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Old Pilot View Post

            Good start for a thread. Thank you for this (increasingly rare) instance of discussing something about the treasure hunt itself.
            I don't agree 100% with what you said, but I'll explain why, okay?

            Forrest, in writing about working at the Totem Cafe, mentioned "deep canyons" in his hands. So maybe "canyon" could, in addition to a real one, refer to something resembling one but not generally called a canyon. I could, for example, imagine wrinkles in one's skin, or a furrowed brow. Or some other place where a rivulet of sweat might run. But generally, I lean toward "canyon" meaning a real topological/natural canyon in the ground, caused either by erosion (i.e., from a river or glacier or water in general or wind), or by an earthquake that once caused a crack in the crust of the earth. I think that using a real canyon (as generally defined) would be a reasonable way to work on a solve. Please do keep in mind that one approach to solving maintains that the "ending" location should be describable as if it were the "starting" location. In this case, WWWH is the description . . . but should -- in my opinion -- be further qualified by having something (at least kinda) nearby that is canyon-like. (I wonder whether the typical drawing/sketch of a "broken heart" might provide the visual for this . . . at least in one's imagination.)

            Briefly summarizing, I believe that "canyon down" is a very (if not critically) important part of the poem, and should not be dismissed/ignored. Whether "canyon down" by itself is an entire clue (one of nine) may not be all that important. Who's counting clues? Not me. Who's defining them? Not me. But I am taking extreme care to not ignore/dismiss any part of the poem, including capitalization and also including punctuation. Any/all of this posting is part of my opinion.
            You mention a broken heart, OP -
            could that also mean wounded or even not working like it should? Perhaps even permanently damaged? Thanks for your input, which is always appreciated.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by wwwamericana View Post

              You mention a broken heart, OP -
              could that also mean wounded or even not working like it should? Perhaps even permanently damaged? Thanks for your input, which is always appreciated.
              I wasn't thinking in terms of a malfunctioning vital organ. And the phrase "broken heart" is really about mindset, rather than the heart itself, which has been romanticized to the nth degree. I suppose that since it is truly a vital organ, that when someone is depressed enough to lose their will to live, their heart will stop. I was imagining the graphic representation (i.e., a drawing/sketch) of a heart with a big crack (fracture?) in it.

              By the way, I think the deaths of several people -- with whom I was somewhat familiar -- were hastened by "heartbreak" (depression).
              Old Pilot
              Senior Member
              Last edited by Old Pilot; 11-14-2021, 12:48 AM.

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              • #8
                Thanks for clarifying your point, OP.

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                • #9
                  Ya know, a down is also a hill. So when ya think ya dropping, ya could be rising...

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by ICV. View Post
                    Forrest said there were 9 clues in the poem. How should we define a clue?

                    We know WWWH was the first clue, because he said so.

                    There's really no other way to interpret "canyon" other than an actual canyon. Maybe large or small, but a canyon. I don't see room for metaphorical meaning on this one. It seems more like a simple direction. The canyon should be obvious once you found WWWH.

                    Things like HOB, and "no place for the meek" seem to fall into the category of actual clues, since there can be many ways to interpret these. We aren't guaranteed to figure out the correct meaning.

                    I'd love to know what the actual 9 clues were. Even removing "canyon down", I still seem to end up with more than 9 statements that seem clue-like.

                    No doubt, there is a literal creek later on, but that is combined with "heavy loads and water high" to make the clue. I've yet to see a creek in the mountains that I could paddle up, so that statement on its own could be almost any creek.
                    Most of your points in this post ARE accurate, ICV.......or, as I see clues in usernames, maybe you should be 'CVI'

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by UNtitleD Brave View Post

                      Most of your points in this post ARE accurate, ICV.......or, as I see clues in usernames, maybe you should be 'CVI'
                      No clues there. ICV doesn't mean a thing.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Old Pilot View Post

                        Good start for a thread. Thank you for this (increasingly rare) instance of discussing something about the treasure hunt itself.
                        Who's counting clues? Not me. Who's defining them? Not me. But I am taking extreme care to not ignore/dismiss any part of the poem, including capitalization and also including punctuation. Any/all of this posting is part of my opinion.
                        Thanks for the first comment. I have zero interest in the whole drama of the chase - what I care about is where the chest is or was, and how to figure it out. Not even that worried about the money. I'd still like it of course, but it's not my retirement plan.

                        Having said that, if I've exhausted all 9 clues by the time I get to "brave and in the wood", do I disregard that? I have a very specific meaning for that one, and it has nothing to do with physical courage. But if it is just filler, then I'd look elsewhere.

                        It also helps to figure out what Forrest meant when he said that some have solved the first two clues, and in one instance four. Then where they likely went as they found those locations and how they could get within 200 feet.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by ICV. View Post
                          There's really no other way to interpret "canyon" other than an actual canyon. Maybe large or small, but a canyon. I don't see room for metaphorical meaning on this one. It seems more like a simple direction. The canyon should be obvious once you found WWWH.
                          IMO, when saying "canyon down" Forrest meant singular form of "downs", i. e. "greens". So, "canyon down" is a place. Take a look at the Big Persian vignette, where Forrest lands his plane on a golf course greens. IMO, the story in this vignette is totaly made up, he just gives us a hint to the meaning of "canyon down".

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by ICV. View Post
                            Forrest said there were 9 clues in the poem. How should we define a clue?

                            We know WWWH was the first clue, because he said so.

                            There's really no other way to interpret "canyon" other than an actual canyon. Maybe large or small, but a canyon. I don't see room for metaphorical meaning on this one. It seems more like a simple direction. The canyon should be obvious once you found WWWH.

                            Things like HOB, and "no place for the meek" seem to fall into the category of actual clues, since there can be many ways to interpret these. We aren't guaranteed to figure out the correct meaning.

                            I'd love to know what the actual 9 clues were. Even removing "canyon down", I still seem to end up with more than 9 statements that seem clue-like.

                            No doubt, there is a literal creek later on, but that is combined with "heavy loads and water high" to make the clue. I've yet to see a creek in the mountains that I could paddle up, so that statement on its own could be almost any creek.
                            Forrest did recommend to keep the solve simple, to marry the poem with the map, he warned not to overcomplicate it. "If you knew the geographic location of each clue it would be a map to the treasure. f". "There is no substitute for thinking and planning and observing and looking at maps, unless it’s the desire to keep it simple. f". And I haven't heard from anyone yet that Jack said otherwise.

                            Thus it makes sense to start with the most simple strategy and only making that strategy more complex, if there is a weighty reason.

                            In principle, we have to "marry" the poem with places, geological features, directions and distances on maps. I would say neither "begin" nor "blaze" can be found on any map, they represent the starting point and the end point. Because the "blaze" is the end point (in very close proximity of the chest), it changes to past "you've been wise and found the blaze".

                            From "begin" to "blaze"(end) there are nine lines. For the simplest, we'll take each line as one clue:

                            clue 1 - starting point / place >>> "Begin it where warm waters halt"
                            clue 2 - direction / geological feature >>> "And take it in the canyon down,"
                            clue 3 - distance / road >>> "Not far, but too far to walk."
                            clue 4 - place / direction >>> "Put in below the home of Brown."
                            clue 5 - natural feature >>> "From there it's no place for the meek,"
                            clue 6 - distance / geological feature >>> "The end is drawing ever nigh;"
                            clue 7 - geological feature / direction >>> "There'll be no paddle up your creek,"
                            clue 8 - geological feature / place >>> "Just heavy loads and water high."
                            clue 9 - place / end point >>> "If you've been wise and found the blaze,"

                            Just simple and straightforward!
                            Can anyone tell me a weighty reason for going to a more complex approach?
                            Last edited by steve66; 11-13-2021, 11:22 AM.

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                            • #15
                              Begin it where warm waters halt, and take it in the canyon down,
                              not far, but too far to walk. = The first clue

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