Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Small Streams Like the Gibbon -- The Gibbon River

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #61
    Originally posted by MZ007 View Post
    The primary problem I have with a Yellowstone solve is that there are so many people looking and observing all the time. Tourists are looking for wildlife of course, or interesting geologic features, but their eyes are focused into the woods. So for somebody to hike off trail a ways, like even up to half a mile, there is a very good chance someone will notice. Plus rangers might wonder "What's that guy doing there?", and be on alert. Or they might see a parked car, and follow in to make sure the person is not pilfering artifacts, rocks, antlers or whatnot.
    I would agree that most YNP solves are not viable simply because too much of the path you take from the car to the hiding spot is out in the open, visible to passersby. You would need to disappear from view quite soon after getting out of the car and from there it needs to be a low probability of a random encounter.

    That said, YNP is a large place and there are many spots that don't have a lot of people. Rangers are busy enough, they are unlikely to spend time searching for the occupants of a car that isn't illegally parked. That said, parking in the same place day after day, all day long, could possibly draw the attention of a park ranger.

    It does say "bold" and "brave" in the poem not to mention "tarry scant" and "go in peace", so we can't assume the hiding place is so remote that your chance of being noticed is very low. Instead it sounds like there could indeed be an element of being surreptitious and careful. That could fit with some areas of YNP, the only way you'd know is spending some time at possible locations. When I did a recon in YNP, this was one of the primary things I was looking for .... how visible is the possible path, how likely are you to be noticed, can you somehow blend in while lugging around a heavy pack? Most spots in YNP are eliminated easily via such an assessment.

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Old Pilot View Post

      If you think the blaze is Wolf lake, I don't know why. It doesn't seem to "stand out". Please explain how it qualifies, if you think it does. Thanks in advance.
      it was just a interesting blaze. not my solve.
      as mentioned it was just for fun.
      the "blaze" is the red metal square 15ft up stuck in the side of the tree, not wolf lake.
      it is not "the" blaze, just "a" blaze.
      enjoy.

      Comment


      • #63
        There's a lot of reverse engineering going on to make the clues fit Secret Valley Creek.

        Warm waters halt where the Gibbon River becomes rapid and frothy? Let's examine that. They don't halt physically; in fact, they speed up. They don't halt in temperature. They don't halt in name. They merely cease to be comfortable. Well, there are thousands of places in the Rocky Mountains where a slow, lazy current becomes rapid and frothy. In no way does that lead to this place on the Gibbon.

        Start with a solid WWWH and move forward. Starting anywhere else in the poem is folly.

        The home of Brown is the entire acid sulfate thermal system traced by the Gibbon River? You might as well pick any patch of land anywhere in the Rocky Mountains on the basis that its soil is brown.

        The biggest thing going for Secret Valley Creek is its name? There are hundreds of places in the Rocky Mountains with secret, hidden, or similar words in their names. Place names change all the time; they're entirely unreliable for a treasure hunt that's supposed to last 1,000 years.

        But don't take my word for it, listen to Forrest:

        "Dear Forrest, What’s more important in solving the search, a greater knowledge (“knowlege”) of Toponymy or Geography? ~Chris

        I don’t know how Toponymy can help you at all Chris (I had to look that word up). But if you knew the geographic location of each clue it would be a map to the treasure. f"

        Comment


        • #64
          What if "No paddle up your creek" was Republic Creek in Wyoming?

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Vertigo View Post
            There's a lot of reverse engineering going on to make the clues fit Secret Valley Creek.

            Warm waters halt where the Gibbon River becomes rapid and frothy? Let's examine that. They don't halt physically; in fact, they speed up. They don't halt in temperature. They don't halt in name. They merely cease to be comfortable. Well, there are thousands of places in the Rocky Mountains where a slow, lazy current becomes rapid and frothy. In no way does that lead to this place on the Gibbon.

            Start with a solid WWWH and move forward. Starting anywhere else in the poem is folly.

            The home of Brown is the entire acid sulfate thermal system traced by the Gibbon River? You might as well pick any patch of land anywhere in the Rocky Mountains on the basis that its soil is brown.

            The biggest thing going for Secret Valley Creek is its name? There are hundreds of places in the Rocky Mountains with secret, hidden, or similar words in their names. Place names change all the time; they're entirely unreliable for a treasure hunt that's supposed to last 1,000 years.

            But don't take my word for it, listen to Forrest:

            "Dear Forrest, What’s more important in solving the search, a greater knowledge (“knowlege”) of Toponymy or Geography? ~Chris

            I don’t know how Toponymy can help you at all Chris (I had to look that word up). But if you knew the geographic location of each clue it would be a map to the treasure. f"
            I didn't say the Secret Valley Creek solve was without several problems, they all have problems ... perhaps even the correct one. But ....

            First, true that many lazy streams in the Rockies become rapids. How many, though, are (relatively) warm (all year long) in temperature as they go from meandering in a meadow to rapids and waterfalls (probably in a canyon, or at least a valley)? I'd wager very few.

            Second, it's warm waters that halt not warm water. As I explained to you elsewhere, what makes something "waters" is that it's a distinct part of a body of water. E.g. the territorial waters of Brazil (part of the Atlantic Ocean), the slow-running waters of the Rio Grande (part of the Rio Grande), Western trout waters (distinct), etc. The Firehole, Gibbon and Madison are all higher in temperature than pretty much anywhere else in the Rockies assuming similarly situated. These warm waters, in terms of solely temperature, halt only at Hebgen Lake. Not at Madison Junction. But why do the waters have to be exclusively warm just in temperature? Can they not also be warm in terms of being inviting and comfortable? Who would point to rapids and waterfalls as warm waters? Why can't warm waters be interpreted as both relatively high in temperature and also running slow enough to invite a dip (of more than just a toe)? Such warm waters (of the Madison River inside YNP) would halt only in two places ... at the entrance to Firehole Canyon and at the entrance to Gibbon Canyon.

            Third, I've never seen an amazing HOB, but if you think brown soil is the same as a thermal system in YNP that produces sulfur (poop association) and iron oxide which is a main ingredient in Van Dyke brown paint then sure, go ahead and keep looking for a hiding spot near the brown trout.

            Fourth, the word secret appears in the poem, not something similar. How many places have the name "secret" in the Rocky Mountains? A few more than in YNP but still not that many. And it has nothing to do with toponymy, it has to do with Forrest being the kind of guy who would think a place named "secret" something is humorous (since naming it ruins the secret). It would be pretty daring, and funny, for the "secret where" to be in such a place. Give a child a map that has a Secret Valley and ask him or her to help you find where a secret spot might be located. Why didn't anybody think of that? Since it's not a clue, why would it matter if the name were to change? And of course it won't, even in a thousand years. This is one of a few areas of YNP that gets ignored, where people don't go.

            Comment


            • #66
              Since gibbons are definitely not quiet animals, can it be considered (poetically) correct that walking along or crossing the Gibbon River is no place for the meek? The "Firehole" could be a similar interpretation (fire in the hole!) but not as good in my opinion, while the Madison seems to be entirely lacking in any sort of non-meekness.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Fatchocolate View Post
                What if "No paddle up your creek" was Republic Creek in Wyoming?
                You could treat this as a possibility if you want to. Good luck.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Vertigo View Post
                  There'll be no paddle up your creek. Can your creek be a river? Similarly, can a river be a stream?

                  Put aside what you think. Look for evidence of what Forrest thinks:

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkQXwszk_Yc&t=89s

                  "For me, catching a big fish was okay once in a while, but I like the small streams like the Gibbon -- the Gibbon River."

                  Just sharing as a reminder to prioritize evidence of Forrest's thoughts over your own thoughts, or what you might find in a dictionary.
                  Very good point. I have heard that quote multiple times and never really picked up on that subtle difference of how Forrest describes the Gibbon as a stream and not a river. Thanks Vertigo, that’s adding real value to the discussion in my opinion.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Ozzy View Post

                    Very good point. I have heard that quote multiple times and never really picked up on that subtle difference of how Forrest describes the Gibbon as a stream and not a river. Thanks Vertigo, that’s adding real value to the discussion in my opinion.
                    This is excellent evidence. I will give you another. Forrest told my search partner in an email when they asked him "What is a creek to you because a creek to me is a crick cause I'm country. Forrest replied "A creek is a small river country or not."

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Blazingwaddles View Post
                      Since gibbons are definitely not quiet animals, can it be considered (poetically) correct that walking along or crossing the Gibbon River is no place for the meek? The "Firehole" could be a similar interpretation (fire in the hole!) but not as good in my opinion, while the Madison seems to be entirely lacking in any sort of non-meekness.
                      James Madison, for whom the river was named, was a formidable statesman and president -- not the kind of person his opponents would want to cross. In other words, crossing Madison was not for the meek.

                      DISCLAIMER: I'm posting this to illustrate how searchers make connections that are reasonable, but which Forrest never intended. I do not believe what I posted above has anything to do with the solution to the poem.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Vertigo View Post

                        James Madison, for whom the river was named, was a formidable statesman and president -- not the kind of person his opponents would want to cross. In other words, crossing Madison was not for the meek.

                        DISCLAIMER: I'm posting this to illustrate how searchers make connections that are reasonable, but which Forrest never intended. I do not believe what I posted above has anything to do with the solution to the poem.
                        I see your point about intent but the thing is we don't know what it was for most of the clues so we must try to make some guesses as we try to solve the poem. This is not an example of seeing hints where there aren't any. That's where Jack said to look for intent. Rather this is the case of following one possible path of the poem and arriving at a spot that reasonably fits the clues. You drive to below rhe home of Brown and "put in" (head into the wilderness off trail, possibly crossing water) and from there it is no place for the meek. Meek could refer to the fear of entering the wilderness but that's pretty generic ... a more specific thing would be a geographical feature that could somehow be interpreted as not meek.

                        Madison was in fact known to be a quiet, reserved man but with very strong conviction. I don't think it would be appropriate to claim that Madison was somehow the opposite of meek. But I would say this falls into the category of specialized knowledge ... I suppose same could be said of a gibbon being an obnoxiously loud animal except one of the very first things you'd learn about them is how they hoot and howler, seeming to even taunt predators.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Dal has posted an email from ff to a searcher from 2011. It mentions the Firehole, Madison, and Gibbon--regarding the latter, he mentioned a meadow "not far" from MJ which he calls "probably my favorite spot to fish." (Not sure if I can post the entirety of something from another blog... the quote seems rather important.)

                          I also found a photo of Gibbon Falls last week, taken from the east (!) side of the river. It's a rare view, perhaps accessed from the meadow, above.

                          Regarding Secret Valley Creek and Iron Springs nearby, and the strange rock formations in the shape of beasties there... I believe ff was giving hints to quite a lot of things in the geography/geology of the wide area around where the TC was hidden, not just to the treasure location. That is, clues = path, hints = area/region. IMO.

                          ETA: This is from the Firehole Ranch fishing website: "Below Gibbon Falls there can be a few surprises, as Browns and Rainbows that migrate upstream from Hebgen in the fall are stilling lies [sic?] under the bramble of logs, or at the bottom of the deep corner pocket."
                          Last edited by Lady V; 06-16-2021, 06:55 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Lady V View Post
                            Dal has posted an email from ff to a searcher from 2011. It mentions the Firehole, Madison, and Gibbon--regarding the latter, he mentioned a meadow "not far" from MJ which he calls "probably my favorite spot to fish." (Not sure if I can post the entirety of something from another blog... the quote seems rather important.)

                            I also found a photo of Gibbon Falls last week, taken from the east (!) side of the river. It's a rare view, perhaps accessed from the meadow, above.

                            Regarding Secret Valley Creek and Iron Springs nearby, and the strange rock formations in the shape of beasties there... I believe ff was giving hints to quite a lot of things in the geography/geology of the wide area around where the TC was hidden, not just to the treasure location. That is, clues = path, hints = area/region. IMO.

                            ETA: This is from the Firehole Ranch fishing website: "Below Gibbon Falls there can be a few surprises, as Browns and Rainbows that migrate upstream from Hebgen in the fall are stilling lies [sic?] under the bramble of logs, or at the bottom of the deep corner pocket."
                            Thanks Lady V. I wonder what "not far" from MJ means. Hopefully not the same thing as "not far" in the poem. There appears to be a large meadow area on the east side of Hwy 191 just before MJ. It would be possible to reach this meadow without crossing any rivers. But if you don't cross a river then how do you explain the part about getting wet? Maybe the meadow is marshy. What do you think?

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              I think the favorite meadow of Forrest is either Gibbon Meadows or Elk Park. These are serene, not overrun by anglers, and seem to be exactly as he has waxed on about his favorite fishing memories.

                              The Gibbon is described as fishing a lot like the Firehole, yet this guy says it's the most "intimidating" river in YNP:

                              https://troutfitters.com/blog/post/a...-by-mike-cline

                              Note that below Gibbon Falls (to Madison Junction) it seems to be known for large fish during spawning at which time there are a lot of fishermen, so I doubt this would be Forrest's favorite fishing meadow.

                              While reading the above article a new consideration occurred to me, that of the pocket water. This is where the water in a fast-running stream appears to be calm around a large obstruction like a boulder or log. Fish tend to hang out in these pockets since they don't need to swim hard against the current. The water in these pockets can swirl and sometimes even reverse course.

                              The more I think of it the more I like pocket water as being referenced by the "halt" in the poem. Since "waters" is most likely referring to a trout stream per the Flywater chapter in TToTC (I think this is one of the few hints) and the only trout streams in the Rockies known for "warm waters" are the Firehole, Gibbon and Madison, then WWWH could perhalps be the pocket water along a section of rapids in these rivers. Besides unifying the fishing theme, there is also the additional logic of pocket water being found in a canyon, as the poem's contiguous clues might be suggesting. Plus there is the twist that water could actually halt in fast current as normally that might not occur to people. Indeed, I can't think of many searchers who have come up with this idea of WWWH might refer to pocket water.
                              Last edited by Blazingwaddles; 06-27-2021, 08:27 PM.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Blazingwaddles View Post
                                I think the favorite meadow of Forrest is either Gibbon Meadows or Elk Park. These are serene, not overrun by anglers, and seem to be exactly as he has waxed on about his favorite fishing memories.

                                The Gibbon is described as fishing a lot like the Firehole, yet this guy says it's the most "intimidating" river in YNP:

                                https://troutfitters.com/blog/post/a...-by-mike-cline

                                Note that below Gibbon Falls (to Madison Junction) it seems to be known for large fish during spawning at which time there are a lot of fishermen, so I doubt this would be Forrest's favorite fishing meadow.

                                While reading the above article a new consideration occurred to me, that of the pocket water. This is where the water in a fast-running stream appears to be calm around a large obstruction like a boulder or log. Fish tend to hang out in these pockets since they don't need to swim hard against the current. The water in these pockets can swirl and sometimes even reverse course.

                                The more I think of it the more I like pocket water as being referenced by the "halt" in the poem. Since "waters" is most likely referring to a trout stream per the Flywater chapter in TToTC (I think this is one of the few hints) and the only trout streams in the Rockies known for "warm waters" are the Firehole, Gibbon and Madison, then WWWH could perhalps be the pocket water along a section of rapids in these rivers. Besides unifying the fishing theme, there is also the additional logic of pocket water being found in a canyon, as the poem's contiguous clues might be suggesting. Plus there is the twist that water could actually halt in fast current as normally that might not occur to people. Indeed, I can't think of many searchers who have come up with this idea of WWWH might refer to pocket water.
                                Pocket water isn't a bad idea. That's basically why I suggested that WWH could be at the bottom of a waterfall. The water stops moving instantaneously before continuing on its way. I'm not a fisherman, but I think pocket water would probably fit in better with a fishing theme than would a waterfall. The problem I have with pocket water is that the boulders or logs responsible for the pocket could move causing the location of WWWH to change. Also, Forrest seemed to say that more than a few searchers told him the correct WWWH. Like you said, I don't think many searchers would have come up with pocket water.
                                Last edited by Redneck Girl; 06-27-2021, 10:27 PM.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X