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Everything But The Blaze -- Madison (Nine Mile Hole)

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  • #91
    Originally posted by minotaur_moreno View Post

    IDK. At Ojo Caliente on the Firehole you can literally feel the warm water exactly as they describe. At Soda Butte in the Slough Creek solve, you can literally feel the warm water exactly as they describe. When you’re at Madison Junction, the water is only describable as cold, that’s a HUGE problem for any Madison River solve, IMO. And the fact the WWWH you use for the solve has to be after the Firehole and Gibbons Canyons because you only go down one canyon (which has to be the Madison).

    If we are going to hold other solves up to high standards, we need to do the same for this one.

    Jack:
    1. Are you confident you found WWWH? Yes
    2. Was there physical warm water at WWWH? Yes
    Great critical comment. Very worthy of questioning the solve.

    Just thinking out loud:

    First of all, the swimming area of the Firehole goes way past Ojo Caliente and close to the Madison junction. The water can't be that cold - that's why its the swimming area. If you dip your toe in that area, I don't know if you would describe it as warm or not, but it's certainly "comfortable" to many. I think there are some cold springs right there close to Madison junction. Perhaps that is where warm water halts, and then to take it in the canyon down you are going to have to go down the Madison river a short distance away.

    Secondly, I have advocated starting at Ojo Caliente and going down the Firehole Canyon which TURNS INTO the Madison Canyon. You say there cannot be two canyons, but one way of looking at it is that they aren't two canyons. If you keep following the river, its still the same canyon.

    Look at it this way - what if instead of calling it the Madison river, they had just kept the name Firehole river? The Gibbon runs into the Firehole and then there is a left turn for the Firehole all the way to West Yellowstone and beyond. In that scenario, would you still say its two canyons? It's all part of the same river system. I'm sure most would feel that's a stretch, but if you just keep going downstream, repeat downstream, from Ojo Caliente, and you stay in "the canyon" you will end up at 9 mile hole. If NFBTFTW is ten miles, then there's no where else you could end up. You have to keep going in the canyon down for 10 miles.

    Lastly, the Gibbon is a whole different system that has all the geysers, and you could make a hole different WWWH for that, so how are we supposed to decide which one? I believe the big picture answer is therefore Madison Junction because of all the Geysers that are involved in the big picture.

    But Jack did say the warm water was there at WWWH, so how about this: If you don't like the Firehole canyon and the Madison canyon being one canyon, is it better if it's the Gibbon Canyon? In that case there is no direction change, and the Madison is just a name change, but the canyon is just an extension of the Gibbon Canyon. So where do WWH? Supposedly at Iron Springs on the Gibbon where after that, the cold springs run into the river and its the edge of the caldera.

    So WWWH is Iron Springs. You can look at it as one canyon going straight downstream. The Firehole runs into it and the name changes, but its the same canyon.

    So how far is Iron Springs from 9 mile hole? You guessed it - it's about ten miles.

    Just trying to find a way to resolve the issue.




    Last edited by Must Listengood; 05-02-2021, 10:37 PM.

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    • #92
      Originally posted by minotaur_moreno View Post

      IDK. At Ojo Caliente on the Firehole you can literally feel the warm water exactly as they describe. At Soda Butte in the Slough Creek solve, you can literally feel the warm water exactly as they describe. When you’re at Madison Junction, the water is only describable as cold, that’s a HUGE problem for any Madison River solve, IMO. And the fact the WWWH you use for the solve has to be after the Firehole and Gibbons Canyons because you only go down one canyon (which has to be the Madison).

      If we are going to hold other solves up to high standards, we need to do the same for this one.

      Jack:
      1. Are you confident you found WWWH? Yes
      2. Was there physical warm water at WWWH? Yes
      I absolutely agree we should hold all potential solves to high standards, including this one. I'm always ready to change my mind if presented with a better fit.

      Here's why I think Ojo Caliente or Soda Butte are inferior to Madison Junction as WWWH. (By the way, I strongly considered both of those, and am still open to them.)

      When presented with a vague description that can fit many places, I feel the wisest choice is to choose the most obvious, or the most significant. By that, I mean most obvious or most significant to the general public. Remember, Forrest wrote the poem for the masses. For the masses to have a fair chance at solving it, I believe that vague descriptions therein must always point to the most obvious possibility (i.e. the one that is most significant to the general public).

      (Analogy: Imagine telling someone to visit the park when they're in New York City. If you're referring to anything other than Central Park, you're not being fair to that person.)

      Ojo Caliente and Soda Butte can certainly be described as warm waters. However, they are individual hot springs among thousands of hot springs and geysers in Yellowstone Park. Compared to other individual hot springs and geysers in Yellowstone, they are not significant to the masses. Old Faithful and Grand Prismatic are probably the most significant, certainly more so than Ojo Caliente or Soda Butte. But even the most significant individual springs / geysers are not as significant as the collective springs that drain into the Firehole and Gibbon rivers.

      Hundreds of them funnel into the Firehole River from Lower, Midway, and Upper Geyser basins. It is easily the most significant collection. The hot water from all those springs make the Firehole river unusually warm, compared to any other river in the Rocky Mountains. The warm waters of the Firehole halt (or end) at Madison Junction. That would be enough for me. However, we also have hundreds of springs funneling into the Gibbon River from Norris Geyser Basin (the second most significant collection). Lo and behold, the Gibbon also halts (or ends) at Madison Junction.

      I guess for me it comes down to applying this standard of "MOST SIGNIFICANT". It's a judgement call, for sure.

      I also like to focus on the poem and TTOTC alone. They contain plenty of opportunity for misinterpretation. Adding more sources, such as quotes from Forrest or Jack, can help us, of course. The downside is that additional sources introduce even more opportunity for misinterpretation. It's a Catch-22.

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      • #93
        Originally posted by Must Listengood View Post

        I tend to agree that we can't totally eliminate the Firehole. But the fact that Forrest said only one person could fish at nine mile hole was also in Tony Dokoupil's article, which he got from Ramblings and Rumblings, so it is very likely Jack read that.

        You can interpret him taking out the Firehole in two ways - Forrest took it out because he didn't want to be specific or be misleading. Or he took it out because he didn't want to give the answer away.

        GoldenFrog on this blog has his solve that he is totally vested in, which is just above Madison junction on the Firehole where he found a spring above a popular fishing hole. The problem I have with that solve is 1. you don't have to cross water, 2. You make a short clime up a hill and there is a fence. Jack said he didn't cross a fence. And 3. The area appears to be controlled by Rangers - part of their water supply system I think. And 4.) I see no evidence that Forrest ever mentioned it. So it's doubtful Jack could have honed in on that spot.

        There are a lot of swimmers and a lot of recreational hiking on the Firehole below Ojo Caliente. There could be a good spot somewhere closer to Ojo Caliente, but I don't see any evidence so far that points to a specific spot that could be Forrest's favorite. We'll see if something pops up.

        I'm still unimpressed by the importance of Slough Creek to Forrest based on his Slough Creek video. It just sounds like another fishing spot, not his favorite place to die.
        Exactly. I'm sure he had fond memories of Slough Creek but when it comes down to it Madison River was "the river that runs through it"(Fenn's family, life, and heart)

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        • #94
          Originally posted by Vertigo View Post

          Ojo Caliente and Soda Butte can certainly be described as warm waters. However, they are individual hot springs among thousands of hot springs and geysers in Yellowstone Park. Compared to other individual hot springs and geysers in Yellowstone, they are not significant to the masses. Old Faithful and Grand Prismatic are probably the most significant, certainly more so than Ojo Caliente or Soda Butte. But even the most significant individual springs / geysers are not as significant as the collective springs that drain into the Firehole and Gibbon rivers.
          I think everything you have written in your post is great, but I will quibble with this just a bit. What separates Ojo Caliente is that it is basically the LAST warm geyser on the Firehole, making it a potential WWWH. Furthermore, it was a VERY cherished spot for Forrest as his bathing spot. So from his perspective, Ojo Caliente has plenty of importance.

          I think your argument holds for Soda Butte (I thought that was extinct anyway), and it would hold for any other run-of-the-mill geyser that wasn't the LAST geyser. But I think Ojo Caliente is a separate deal - it's last (at least I think its last) and it's special.

          If I said: Begin it at Ojo Caliente
          And take it in the canyon down
          about ten miles

          Where would you end up? Is there any other place besides 9 mile hole that you would end up?

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          • #95
            Let's say Forrest is going fishing. He loves the Firehole, so he starts there just past Ojo Caliente. Then he goes downstream fishes at a couple more spots. Keeps going. Hits another spot and then another, until he ends up at the best, most top secret, and favorite spot ( 9 mile). Isn't that perhaps the trip the poem is describing?

            "IT" is a review of all his favorite fishing territory on the Firehole and the Madison.

            IT made him tired, and at 80 years old he couldn't do IT anymore, so he has to go and leave his trove for all to seek. The spot is at the end of his fishing path. IT.
            Last edited by Must Listengood; 05-02-2021, 11:37 PM.

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            • #96
              This idea of Forrest's fishing trip (he may have even guided this trip) is now exploding in my head.

              Wouldn't it make sense, that if you are going to fly fish the rivers, you would START at Ojo Caliente, WHERE WARM WATERS HALT? Suddenly that makes so much sense to me. You start there and go down the canyon turning onto the Madison until you get to 9 hole, the best one for the final spot of the day.

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              • #97
                Originally posted by Must Listengood View Post

                I think everything you have written in your post is great, but I will quibble with this just a bit. What separates Ojo Caliente is that it is basically the LAST warm geyser on the Firehole, making it a potential WWWH. Furthermore, it was a VERY cherished spot for Forrest as his bathing spot. So from his perspective, Ojo Caliente has plenty of importance.

                I think your argument holds for Soda Butte (I thought that was extinct anyway), and it would hold for any other run-of-the-mill geyser that wasn't the LAST geyser. But I think Ojo Caliente is a separate deal - it's last (at least I think its last) and it's special.

                If I said: Begin it at Ojo Caliente
                And take it in the canyon down
                about ten miles

                Where would you end up? Is there any other place besides 9 mile hole that you would end up?
                Except Ojo Caliente is not the last warm spring on the Firehole. Maiden's Grave Spring, for example is downstream of Ojo Caliente.

                No doubt about Ojo Caliente being a cherished spot from Forrest's perspective. I agree 100 percent.

                If the remaining clues can line up behind Ojo Caliente as well as they do for Madison Junction, I could be convinced. At the moment, I don't see a home of Brown from there that captivates me. The idea of taking the Firehole Canyon down, and then continuing the Madison Canyon down doesn't appeal to me. And why contort like this to reach the same home of Brown (Nine Mile Hole)?
                Last edited by Vertigo; 05-03-2021, 12:10 AM.

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                • #98
                  Originally posted by Vertigo View Post

                  Except Ojo Caliente is not the last warm spring on the Firehole. Maiden's Grave Spring, for example is downstream of Ojo Caliente.

                  No doubt about Ojo Caliente being a cherished spot from Forrest's perspective. I agree 100 percent.

                  If the remaining clues can line up behind Ojo Caliente as well as they do for Madison Junction, I could be convinced. At the moment, I don't see a home of Brown from there that captivates me. The idea of taking the Firehole Canyon down, and then continuing the Madison Canyon down doesn't appeal to me. And why contort like this to reach the same home of Brown (Nine Mile Hole)?
                  You are right Maiden's Grave Spring a little downriver is the last one I think. However, where do the warm waters halt on the Firehole River? If I go dip my toe (a requirement according to Forrest, I heard him say it) the Firehole will be warm at Ojo Caliente. But will my toe be warm in the Firehole at Maiden's Grave Spring? I bet not. I'll bet that warm waters halt at Ojo Caliente.

                  But if it is indeed warm at Maiden's Grave Spring, not far from Ojo Caliente, the we should start there. THAT would be where warm waters halt. We are looking for where warm waters halt (on the Firehole) and Forrest says to test it with your toe.

                  This is where we start IT, our fly fishing guided tour. I'm starting to think this whole thing is the same path as the fly fishing tours he took. Which makes perfect sense as to why you might want to start WHERE WARM WATERS HALT.
                  Last edited by Must Listengood; 05-03-2021, 01:23 AM.

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                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Must Listengood View Post
                    This idea of Forrest's fishing trip (he may have even guided this trip) is now exploding in my head.
                    Probably not exactly where he guided other anglers. Remember he was here alone. Nine Mile Hole may be one of the markers, but the hiding spot was probably a few hundred feet away.

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                    • Originally posted by Vertigo View Post

                      The idea of taking the Firehole Canyon down, and then continuing the Madison Canyon down doesn't appeal to me. And why contort like this to reach the same home of Brown (Nine Mile Hole)?
                      I don't feel I am "contorting" but I understand what you are saying.

                      Here's the problem. There HAS to be warm water to the touch at WWWH. I know you don't see that as a problem because its relative and maybe even figurative. But I see it as a big problem based on the things I have heard Forrest tell searchers. IT HAS TO FEEL WARM WHEN YOU TOUCH IT. I know a poem purist will be hard to convince, but I disagree that you can solve this thing with just the poem. Jack didn't. Nobody else has. You need to take some of these other things into account that are solid. And the warm to the touch thing is pretty darn solid. Don't dismiss it just because it doesn't fit. Jack and Forrest said so. If you don't pay attention to that, you are beginning to "contort" due to your (and we all have this, even Jack) confirmation bias.

                      So that's why we need to adjust. I'll use the word adjust instead of contort.

                      I also know you don't put any stock in ten miles being TFTW, but I do. I don't think that is as solid, but it appears to me Forrest went out of his way to tell us that and he said, paraphrasing, that it doesn't take a genius to figure out the hint he is giving out there. So I believe in it, but I'm not completely tied to it.

                      Ojo Caliente solves both of those problems and makes sense from a fishing perspective, and that's the perspective of the poem I think. So I think we need to explore that.

                      And here's one pretty easy way to read it.

                      Begin IT where warm waters halt - the Lower Firehole river below Ojo Caliente (or Maiden's Grave Spring)
                      Then Take IT in the Canyon down - the Madison Canyon is connected to the Lower Firehole River - it is the canyon downstream - take IT in that canyon
                      NFBTFTW is about ten miles
                      Put in (the river) Below the HOB (9 mile hole)

                      You begin IT on the lower Firehole and then you take IT in the Madison Canyon. IT is your (fishing) journey. This could be exactly how Forrest saw things.

                      I guess the best way to look at it is simply that WWWH is the Lower Firehole River below the warm water. That's one way to resolve the problem.

                      Even if you just say that WWWH is Ojo Caliente, the Canyon Down(stream) can still be Madison Canyon. You don't have to already be in the canyon when you start. It could simply mean take your journey in the canyon that starts down stream. The downstream part is what makes it contiguous.

                      I think we have to resolve the "warm to the touch" problem. That's my opinion based on both Forrest and Jack.






                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by thehomeofBrown.com View Post

                        Probably not exactly where he guided other anglers. Remember he was here alone. Nine Mile Hole may be one of the markers, but the hiding spot was probably a few hundred feet away.
                        Well, he may have taken people to all of these fishing spots including 9 mile hole, where he would just tell them where to go and what to do. Only room for one there, but that one could be his client. But of course he didn't take them back into the forest. That would definitely be a place he went alone and a secret spot.

                        Even though 9 mile only holds one fisherman, you can bet his father and grandfather went there, probably while he was nearby. So he could have taken other people there. When he was actually fishing there, I suppose he would be alone, regardless.

                        The guided thing is meaningless though. It doesn't matter. On the Firehole and the Madison were all his favorite fishing spots it would seem. I could see him hitting many of them in one day on one trip. That doesn't really matter either. It just seems though that we are going down the path of all his favorite fishing spots.

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                        • Originally posted by Must Listengood View Post

                          I don't feel I am "contorting" but I understand what you are saying.

                          Here's the problem. There HAS to be warm water to the touch at WWWH. I know you don't see that as a problem because its relative and maybe even figurative. But I see it as a big problem based on the things I have heard Forrest tell searchers. IT HAS TO FEEL WARM WHEN YOU TOUCH IT. I know a poem purist will be hard to convince, but I disagree that you can solve this thing with just the poem. Jack didn't. Nobody else has. You need to take some of these other things into account that are solid. And the warm to the touch thing is pretty darn solid. Don't dismiss it just because it doesn't fit. Jack and Forrest said so. If you don't pay attention to that, you are beginning to "contort" due to your (and we all have this, even Jack) confirmation bias.

                          So that's why we need to adjust. I'll use the word adjust instead of contort.

                          I also know you don't put any stock in ten miles being TFTW, but I do. I don't think that is as solid, but it appears to me Forrest went out of his way to tell us that and he said, paraphrasing, that it doesn't take a genius to figure out the hint he is giving out there. So I believe in it, but I'm not completely tied to it.

                          Ojo Caliente solves both of those problems and makes sense from a fishing perspective, and that's the perspective of the poem I think. So I think we need to explore that.

                          And here's one pretty easy way to read it.

                          Begin IT where warm waters halt - the Lower Firehole river below Ojo Caliente (or Maiden's Grave Spring)
                          Then Take IT in the Canyon down - the Madison Canyon is connected to the Lower Firehole River - it is the canyon downstream - take IT in that canyon
                          NFBTFTW is about ten miles
                          Put in (the river) Below the HOB (9 mile hole)

                          You begin IT on the lower Firehole and then you take IT in the Madison Canyon. IT is your (fishing) journey. This could be exactly how Forrest saw things.

                          I guess the best way to look at it is simply that WWWH is the Lower Firehole River below the warm water. That's one way to resolve the problem.

                          Even if you just say that WWWH is Ojo Caliente, the Canyon Down(stream) can still be Madison Canyon. You don't have to already be in the canyon when you start. It could simply mean take your journey in the canyon that starts down stream. The downstream part is what makes it contiguous.

                          I think we have to resolve the "warm to the touch" problem. That's my opinion based on both Forrest and Jack.
                          Sorry, "contort" was a poor choice of words on my part. As you've suggested, "adjust" is much better. I just find it curious to adjust the understanding of the early clues in order to arrive at the same waypoint (Nine Mile Hole).

                          I appreciate your concerns about the "warm to the touch" comments. If you have access to the precise quotes, perhaps I can allay your concern. Or perhaps I will change my mind. The exact quotes are needed, otherwise we are making a decision on paraphrased ideas, which may carry misinterpretation.

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                          • AllenK Can you retrieve the exact wording of the warm question you asked Jack? I mostly want to know if the word warm was in quotations marks in either the question or answer.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by thehomeofBrown.com View Post
                              AllenK Can you retrieve the exact wording of the warm question you asked Jack? I mostly want to know if the word warm was in quotations marks in either the question or answer.
                              Somebody posted this on a Reddit thread, apparently a question he posed to Jack. Is this the quote in question?

                              I asked "Fenn has several times hinted at the waters being physically warm to the touch if you were to dip your toes into it. I was just wondering if you were willing to confirm that the word "warm" is not meant in a metaphorical sense, as Fenn has somewhat already said that."

                              His reply was:

                              "I don't think he hinted. I think he asked a question, and people wanted it to be a hint, so they decided it was. But because everything in the poem is straightforward, the water has to be warm to him."

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Vertigo View Post

                                Somebody posted this on a Reddit thread, apparently a question he posed to Jack. Is this the quote in question?

                                I asked "Fenn has several times hinted at the waters being physically warm to the touch if you were to dip your toes into it. I was just wondering if you were willing to confirm that the word "warm" is not meant in a metaphorical sense, as Fenn has somewhat already said that."

                                His reply was:

                                "I don't think he hinted. I think he asked a question, and people wanted it to be a hint, so they decided it was. But because everything in the poem is straightforward, the water has to be warm to him."
                                Soon to be released in hardback:

                                "The Vagueness of Jack"

                                Summary - it's an English major limited edition on how not to give a straight answer, but to say enough words to get the gullible to believe every word you speak.



                                This is sure to be pulse-pounding, hair-raising NY Times Bestseller !!

                                Look for it on the "New Release" shelves at 'Barnes and Noble' and 'Borders' soon!

                                Get yours!

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