Everything But The Blaze -- Madison (Nine Mile Hole)

[Vertigo]

I have to say that helps convince me that it's not difficult at all. Put on a pair of waders, go across where it's not too deep and it's not much of a challenge, even for an 8 year old. It's not likely any deeper than about 30 inches. Of course you could cross where its too deep, too silty, or to swift, but I think that's partly why we have these instructions. You are going to be fine "below the HOB".

Yeah, I've been sharing those videos to help people decide for themselves if it's safe to cross, but in my personal opinion, it's safe if done with caution. I like the idea that "below the hoB" is probably a bit safer than "at the home of Brown."

Here's one thing that bother's me just a little: Wouldn't someone have seen Forrest crossing the river in 2010 and remember it? There are people all over in the summer - a constant stream going down the highway - wouldn't a man wading across the river kind of stand out in your memory if you thought back to that time? I guess not, but it would seem risky to cross there because someone might see you do it and remember it. Convince me that's just not realistic.

I believe there was a quote from Forrest (which I can't locate at the moment), where he said something to the effect that he was a little surprised there were so few (or no) people around when he took the chest from his car to the hiding spot. If someone could locate that quote, it would be helpful.

Even if people saw, I don't think a man wading across the river would be such an extraordinary thing. If he was wearing waders, he would look just like one of many anglers doing some fishing. And though a lot of people know about Forrest Fenn's treasure, there are way more who have never even heard about it. I was one of them until January this year.

[minotaur_moreno]

“The Madison River in the park had three good fishing holes; the Slow Bend (five miles up,) the Nine Mile Hole (you guessed it, nine miles,) and the Water Hole, (about eleven miles). These were our secret names and the great fishing spots were also TOP SECRET.

It was important that we beat my grandfather (old Charlie Simpson) to these fishing places, especially the Nine Mile Hole that had room for only one fisherman.” - f (Ramblings & Rumblings)

[Must Listengood]

These are the things I am convinced of:
1. "die at my favorite..." was one slip up (perhaps the subtle one, but Jack is clearly telling us) and it helped Jack
2. Forrest found favorite and secret fishing spots to be most sacred, and worthy of a place to die

These are the things I am becoming to believe are very likely. I think I'm up to about 90%:
1. Forrest was going to say "favorite fishing hole". It fits the context. It makes sense as to why he stopped his sentence. And since it helped Jack, this is the most likely scenario - its his favorite fishing spot.
2. Before the find, I used to think Forrest might have many favorite fishing holes over his life, including some in NM. I always thought a good fishing spot was where he would secret the chest, but I didn't think I had a way of definitively figuring his favorite out. Jack was not deterred by that. He obviously, like many, researched his favorite fishing hole. I believe if you do so, all the information says that it was on the Madison River. The treasure was very likely hidden there. The fact that Jack found the treasure in Wyoming, and "die at my favorite.." was a big help to him, means that the spot has to be known and researchable. He did find it after all.
3. The most likely spot on the Madison seems to be 9 mile hole. The clues fit. There has to be a spring or creek at the spot and there is. There's a limited number of those along the Madison.

I am feeling fairly content with this. I am just waiting for one of you to go out there, cross the river and take some video!!

Hey if anybody wants to do that, and they don't feel like editing the video, I would be happy to do it for them !

[minotaur_moreno]

These are the things I am convinced of:
1. "die at my favorite..." was one slip up (perhaps the subtle one, but Jack is clearly telling us) and it helped Jack
2. Forrest found favorite and secret fishing spots to be most sacred, and worthy of a place to die

These are the things I am becoming to believe are very likely. I think I'm up to about 90%:
1. Forrest was going to say "favorite fishing hole". It fits the context. It makes sense as to why he stopped his sentence. And since it helped Jack, this is the most likely scenario - its his favorite fishing spot.
2. Before the find, I used to think Forrest might have many favorite fishing holes over his life, including some in NM. I always thought a good fishing spot was where he would secret the chest, but I didn't think I had a way of definitively figuring his favorite out. Jack was not deterred by that. He obviously, like many, researched his favorite fishing hole. I believe if you do so, all the information says that it was on the Madison River. The treasure was very likely hidden there. The fact that Jack found the treasure in Wyoming, and "die at my favorite.." was a big help to him, means that the spot has to be known and researchable. He did find it after all.
3. The most likely spot on the Madison seems to be 9 mile hole. The clues fit. There has to be a spring or creek at the spot and there is. There's a limited number of those along the Madison.

I am feeling fairly content with this. I am just waiting for one of you to go out there, cross the river and take some video!!

Hey if anybody wants to do that, and they don't feel like editing the video, I would be happy to do it for them !

I’m starting to think WWWH is Ojo Caliente and the chest is somewhere along the Firehole. Both are indirectly named (picture of Ojo Caliente is in Flywater and Firehole is named in the Bozeman Chronicle article) but not named in TTOTC and he directly talks about being alone there.

In my mind, we are down to three:
1. Firehole a few miles past Ojo Caliente Hot Spring
2. Nine Mile Hole on the Madison
3. Slough Creek < 1 mile from Slough Creek Campground

What’s interesting is Jack said he didn’t read Rambling & Rumblings until after he found the chest. That’s the only place I know of where f said only one person could fish there.

[Cary_Galloway]

Here's one thing that bother's me just a little: Wouldn't someone have seen Forrest crossing the river in 2010 and remember it? There are people all over in the summer - a constant stream going down the highway - wouldn't a man wading across the river kind of stand out in your memory if you thought back to that time? I guess not, but it would seem risky to cross there because someone might see you do it and remember it. Convince me that's just not realistic.

Question: What kind of shoes? What kind of footprints did you leave? What kind of boots did you have on?
FENN: Well if I told you that, you’d go out and find it.

So if FF put on some waders, held a fishing road and had the gold in a tackle box, i doubt that would look suspicious at all.

[Must Listengood]

I believe there was a quote from Forrest (which I can't locate at the moment), where he said something to the effect that he was a little surprised there were so few (or no) people around when he took the chest from his car to the hiding spot. If someone could locate that quote, it would be helpful.

Even if people saw, I don't think a man wading across the river would be such an extraordinary thing. If he was wearing waders, he would look just like one of many anglers doing some fishing. And though a lot of people know about Forrest Fenn's treasure, there are way more who have never even heard about it. I was one of them until January this year.

I had forgotten about that quote, thanks for reminding me. Had said several things had to go exactly right and he implied one of them was that there had to be no people around, I suppose in this case, especially no one fishing 9 mile hole. And he said he was lucky that things went just right and allowed him to hide it.

So yeah, GREAT POINT.

[Must Listengood]

I’m starting to think WWWH is Ojo Caliente and the chest is somewhere along the Firehole. Both are indirectly named (picture of Ojo Caliente is in Flywater and Firehole is named in the Bozeman Chronicle article) but not named in TTOTC and he directly talks about being alone there.

In my mind, we are down to three:
1. Firehole a few miles past Ojo Caliente Hot Spring
2. Nine Mile Hole on the Madison
3. Slough Creek < 1 mile from Slough Creek Campground

What’s interesting is Jack said he didn’t read Rambling & Rumblings until after he found the chest. That’s the only place I know of where f said only one person could fish there.

I tend to agree that we can't totally eliminate the Firehole. But the fact that Forrest said only one person could fish at nine mile hole was also in Tony Dokoupil's article, which he got from Ramblings and Rumblings, so it is very likely Jack read that.

You can interpret him taking out the Firehole in two ways - Forrest took it out because he didn't want to be specific or be misleading. Or he took it out because he didn't want to give the answer away.

GoldenFrog on this blog has his solve that he is totally vested in, which is just above Madison junction on the Firehole where he found a spring above a popular fishing hole. The problem I have with that solve is 1. you don't have to cross water, 2. You make a short clime up a hill and there is a fence. Jack said he didn't cross a fence. And 3. The area appears to be controlled by Rangers - part of their water supply system I think. And 4.) I see no evidence that Forrest ever mentioned it. So it's doubtful Jack could have honed in on that spot.

There are a lot of swimmers and a lot of recreational hiking on the Firehole below Ojo Caliente. There could be a good spot somewhere closer to Ojo Caliente, but I don't see any evidence so far that points to a specific spot that could be Forrest's favorite. We'll see if something pops up.

I'm still unimpressed by the importance of Slough Creek to Forrest based on his Slough Creek video. It just sounds like another fishing spot, not his favorite place to die.

[Must Listengood]

Question: What kind of shoes? What kind of footprints did you leave? What kind of boots did you have on?
FENN: Well if I told you that, you’d go out and find it.

So if FF put on some waders, held a fishing road and had the gold in a tackle box, i doubt that would look suspicious at all.

Yeah, nice quote. If Forrest had a fly rod in his hand, no one would have given it a second thought, so this concern for me has faded fast. Apparently it just so happens that there were no people there at the time, and Forrest said he was lucky that was the case. So it makes sense.

[minotaur_moreno]

I tend to agree that we can't totally eliminate the Firehole. But the fact that Forrest said only one person could fish at nine mile hole was also in Tony Dokoupil's article, which he got from Ramblings and Rumblings, so it is very likely Jack read that.

You can interpret him taking out the Firehole in two ways - Forrest took it out because he didn't want to be specific or be misleading. Or he took it out because he didn't want to give the answer away.

GoldenFrog on this blog has his solve that he is totally vested in, which is just above Madison junction on the Firehole where he found a spring above a popular fishing hole. The problem I have with that solve is 1. you don't have to cross water, 2. You make a short clime up a hill and there is a fence. Jack said he didn't cross a fence. And 3. The area appears to be controlled by Rangers - part of their water supply system I think. And 4.) I see no evidence that Forrest ever mentioned it. So it's doubtful Jack could have honed in on that spot.

There are a lot of swimmers and a lot of recreational hiking on the Firehole below Ojo Caliente. There could be a good spot somewhere closer to Ojo Caliente, but I don't see any evidence so far that points to a specific spot that could be Forrest's favorite. We'll see if something pops up.

I'm still unimpressed by the importance of Slough Creek to Forrest based on his Slough Creek video. It just sounds like another fishing spot, not his favorite place to die.

Fair points.

My problem with the Madison River and Nine Mile Hole, where is WWWH? If Nine Mile Hole is correct, Madison Canyon has to be the canyon you use in the poem. Both Jack and f said WWWH is warm to the touch and you can touch the warm water. The water at Madison Junction is cold to the touch.

[Vertigo]

Fair points.

My problem with the Madison River and Nine Mile Hole, where is WWWH? If Nine Mile Hole is correct, Madison Canyon has to be the canyon you use in the poem. Both Jack and f said WWWH is warm to the touch and you can touch the warm water. The water at Madison Junction is cold to the touch.

Warm is a relative term. It just means warmer than normal. Can you find a single river in the Rocky Mountains that is warmer than the Firehole and Gibbon?

That's how I look at it.

[minotaur_moreno]

Warm is a relative term. It just means warmer than normal. Can you find a single river in the Rocky Mountains that is warmer than the Firehole and Gibbon?

That's how I look at it.

IDK. At Ojo Caliente on the Firehole you can literally feel the warm water exactly as they describe. At Soda Butte in the Slough Creek solve, you can literally feel the warm water exactly as they describe. When you’re at Madison Junction, the water is only describable as cold, that’s a HUGE problem for any Madison River solve, IMO. And the fact the WWWH you use for the solve has to be after the Firehole and Gibbons Canyons because you only go down one canyon (which has to be the Madison).

If we are going to hold other solves up to high standards, we need to do the same for this one.

Jack:
1. Are you confident you found WWWH? Yes
2. Was there physical warm water at WWWH? Yes

[thehomeofBrown.com]

Fair points.

My problem with the Madison River and Nine Mile Hole, where is WWWH? If Nine Mile Hole is correct, Madison Canyon has to be the canyon you use in the poem. Both Jack and f said WWWH is warm to the touch and you can touch the warm water. The water at Madison Junction is cold to the touch.

The warm waters are from Ojo Caliente, but they are cold by the time they halt at the base of Purple Mountain and begin the Madison River.

[minotaur_moreno]

The warm waters are from Ojo Caliente, but they are cold by the time they halt at the base of Purple Mountain and begin the Madison River.

I respectfully disagree. I’ve soaked in the warm waters of Ojo Caliente. They very much halt after about four feet from where they enter the Firehole. You literally can spread your legs and have one foot in physical warm water and one foot in physical cold water.

Jack (Per Allen K):
1. Are you confident you found WWWH? Yes
2. Was there physical warm water at WWWH? Yes

[thehomeofBrown.com]

I respectfully disagree. I’ve soaked in the warm waters of Ojo Caliente. They very much halt after about four feet from where they enter the Firehole. You literally can spread your legs and have one foot in physical warm water and one foot in physical cold water.

That's fair. And I appreciate the critical thinking. It's important to disprove any wrong ideas.

But I'm still not sure how much weight to put on Jack's physical warm answer. In the original Allen K quote, I think the word "warm" in the question is in quotation marks which makes the answer less definite. We might need to re-ask that question without using quotation marks. If it's just physical waters present that are warm/comfortable to Forrest, then Madison Junction/Purple Mountain still work. If WWWH must have physically warm water, then Madison Junction is ruled out.

Also, what about this: WWWH is Ojo Caliente and canyon down is the second canyon (Madison Canyon) because Firehole Canyon is close enough to walk.
Edit: scratch that idea...not straightforward enough.

[Must Listengood]

IDK. At Ojo Caliente on the Firehole you can literally feel the warm water exactly as they describe. At Soda Butte in the Slough Creek solve, you can literally feel the warm water exactly as they describe. When you’re at Madison Junction, the water is only describable as cold, that’s a HUGE problem for any Madison River solve, IMO. And the fact the WWWH you use for the solve has to be after the Firehole and Gibbons Canyons because you only go down one canyon (which has to be the Madison).

If we are going to hold other solves up to high standards, we need to do the same for this one.

Jack:
1. Are you confident you found WWWH? Yes
2. Was there physical warm water at WWWH? Yes

Great critical comment. Very worthy of questioning the solve.

Just thinking out loud:

First of all, the swimming area of the Firehole goes way past Ojo Caliente and close to the Madison junction. The water can't be that cold - that's why its the swimming area. If you dip your toe in that area, I don't know if you would describe it as warm or not, but it's certainly "comfortable" to many. I think there are some cold springs right there close to Madison junction. Perhaps that is where warm water halts, and then to take it in the canyon down you are going to have to go down the Madison river a short distance away.

Secondly, I have advocated starting at Ojo Caliente and going down the Firehole Canyon which TURNS INTO the Madison Canyon. You say there cannot be two canyons, but one way of looking at it is that they aren't two canyons. If you keep following the river, its still the same canyon.

Look at it this way - what if instead of calling it the Madison river, they had just kept the name Firehole river? The Gibbon runs into the Firehole and then there is a left turn for the Firehole all the way to West Yellowstone and beyond. In that scenario, would you still say its two canyons? It's all part of the same river system. I'm sure most would feel that's a stretch, but if you just keep going downstream, repeat downstream, from Ojo Caliente, and you stay in "the canyon" you will end up at 9 mile hole. If NFBTFTW is ten miles, then there's no where else you could end up. You have to keep going in the canyon down for 10 miles.

Lastly, the Gibbon is a whole different system that has all the geysers, and you could make a hole different WWWH for that, so how are we supposed to decide which one? I believe the big picture answer is therefore Madison Junction because of all the Geysers that are involved in the big picture.

But Jack did say the warm water was there at WWWH, so how about this: If you don't like the Firehole canyon and the Madison canyon being one canyon, is it better if it's the Gibbon Canyon? In that case there is no direction change, and the Madison is just a name change, but the canyon is just an extension of the Gibbon Canyon. So where do WWH? Supposedly at Iron Springs on the Gibbon where after that, the cold springs run into the river and its the edge of the caldera.

So WWWH is Iron Springs. You can look at it as one canyon going straight downstream. The Firehole runs into it and the name changes, but its the same canyon.

So how far is Iron Springs from 9 mile hole? You guessed it - it's about ten miles.

Just trying to find a way to resolve the issue.