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  • Originally posted by Vertigo View Post
    "FF said no one except the Finder has correctly found hoB" is poorly paraphrased and even more poorly interpreted. People can say whatever they like about Jack, but he clearly wasn't lazy. He didn't rely on quotes that were poorly paraphrased or misinterpreted by other searchers. He sought out actual quotes by Forrest and developed his own interpretations.

    Yes, an early version of Flywater spoke about those great places on the Firehole. The same version said those places were in Montana! The Firehole is not in Montana, so Forrest clearly made a mistake. It's not possible to know if he erred by saying they were in Montana, by saying they were on the Firehole, or both. He eliminated those references entirely in the TTOTC version of Flywater. It's not possible to know if he eliminated them because they were erroneous, because he was worried they would lead to the treasure location, or because they would mislead people to incorrect locations. All of those are possible.
    Thanks for this Vertigo. I had typed something similar (but much longer) over the weekend in response to @FlyFishBrown's comment on a separate thread involving one of my posts. I deleted it because it was leading to a big rabbit hole that ultimately didn't matter all that much. I agree that the original version of Flywater that was posted in the Bozeman Daily Chronicle is ambiguous if you're trying to draw a concrete solution-related conclusion. In the BDC article, Forrest talked about "Several of the wonderful color plates are of places where I fished in Montana as a kid under the tutelage of my father . . . " The very next sentence says: "Those great places on the Firehole, which were personal secrets to me then, are now busy with the flourish of fishermen...." Forrest removed these references from TTOTC. I have no clue what that means. We cannot conclusively establish anything by those edits. Like you mentioned, maybe the edits are fixing an inaccuracy, maybe they are related to the treasure. One thing I thought of when assessing those edits is that the Madison connects the Firehole to Montana. Maybe FF removed the places because he was worried they would point too strongly to the area where rivers lead out of Yellowstone and into Montana? We have no way of knowing for sure.

    As for the first part of your comment regarding paraphrasing/interpretations of FF's statements (and their significance), I agree. Too much weight is placed on what may very well be jokes or throwaway comments. I don't put much stock into the "water high" means you must throw a bicycle into the water. AFAIK, that statement was made via email in 2012 when FF answered a question in "Forrest Gets Mail". I can't find what the original question was, but I know forrest's statement was: "What is wrong with me just riding my bike out there and throwing it in the 'water high' when I am through with it?" What on earth does that question mean? I don't see how that question can be used to prove or disprove a solve at all.

    But, that all being said, I am curious to see FlyFishBrown's proposed Firehole solve when it is ready. I thought it was coming out September 7th, but it seems like the poster is collecting more data.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Crazy Midwesterner View Post

      Thanks for this Vertigo. I had typed something similar (but much longer) over the weekend in response to @FlyFishBrown's comment on a separate thread involving one of my posts. I deleted it because it was leading to a big rabbit hole that ultimately didn't matter all that much. I agree that the original version of Flywater that was posted in the Bozeman Daily Chronicle is ambiguous if you're trying to draw a concrete solution-related conclusion. In the BDC article, Forrest talked about "Several of the wonderful color plates are of places where I fished in Montana as a kid under the tutelage of my father . . . " The very next sentence says: "Those great places on the Firehole, which were personal secrets to me then, are now busy with the flourish of fishermen...." Forrest removed these references from TTOTC. I have no clue what that means. We cannot conclusively establish anything by those edits. Like you mentioned, maybe the edits are fixing an inaccuracy, maybe they are related to the treasure. One thing I thought of when assessing those edits is that the Madison connects the Firehole to Montana. Maybe FF removed the places because he was worried they would point too strongly to the area where rivers lead out of Yellowstone and into Montana? We have no way of knowing for sure.

      As for the first part of your comment regarding paraphrasing/interpretations of FF's statements (and their significance), I agree. Too much weight is placed on what may very well be jokes or throwaway comments. I don't put much stock into the "water high" means you must throw a bicycle into the water. AFAIK, that statement was made via email in 2012 when FF answered a question in "Forrest Gets Mail". I can't find what the original question was, but I know forrest's statement was: "What is wrong with me just riding my bike out there and throwing it in the 'water high' when I am through with it?" What on earth does that question mean? I don't see how that question can be used to prove or disprove a solve at all.

      But, that all being said, I am curious to see FlyFishBrown's proposed Firehole solve when it is ready. I thought it was coming out September 7th, but it seems like the poster is collecting more data.
      The bicycle statement was pertaining to someone needing to find FF’s car in a parking lot after he drove there to die at his favorite place. Wherever he intended to go, the spot needed parking AND “water high” for both scenarios.

      The Montana locator and the Firehole reference were both removed.

      I sent my solve to DAL and Cynthia on Sept 7th via email with no response. But to make it short, the location is the meadow with the small creek on left after the Firehole swimming area and cascades. My hoB was the cave near the swimming hole FF probably explored as a kid and related to the chapter of TTOTC Teachers with Ropes where FF explains that kids associate visually through art/pictures (children’s book Brown Bear, Brown Bear.) My blaze guess is the asterisk - all his life experiences crossing (waterfall, lush green area, under the stars with Peggy, flyfishing, river bottoms where dreams and fantasies, etc).
      Last edited by FlyFishBrown; 09-15-2021, 03:59 PM.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by FlyFishBrown View Post
        Wow, dude. You need to seriously grow some thicker skin and stop being so defensive about your precious NMH. Simple is what’s surely needed. It’s wasn’t any insult.
        The language you use to criticize others directly leads to people posting defensively as if you're attacking them. When you're posting things like "[a]fter you read the original Flywater, come back at me" and then immediately follow that up with "but FF said no one except the Finder has correctly found hoB. Since this forum is full of your simple explanation, we all know it’s WRONG. Additionally, Flywater was written about the Firehole. You cannot deny that. Sorry" what on earth are you expecting in kind? You don't get to be a patronizing then accuse someone of having thin skin. I can be guilty of this too, but all of us need to have some perspective on the causality of responsive posts on here.

        For the record, FF said no one except the Finder has correctly identified HoB to him, at the time FF was asked the question. Vertigo's "simple explanation" was not published before Forrest's death. Thus, FF could not have had any idea of Vertigo's proposed solve. Thus, your conclusion that "it's WRONG," all caps, is not reasonable.

        Originally posted by FlyFishBrown View Post
        https://www.bozemandailychronicle.co...111f540db.html

        “Several of the wonderful color plates are of places where I fished in Montana as a kid under the tutelage of my father, OR where I guided others for pay when I was but twelve and thirteen.

        Those great places on the Firehole, which were personal secrets to me then, are now busy with the flourish of fishermen and women who cast a midge or floating cadis upon the same waters, never knowing I had been there, or even caring yes or no. I always thought that space was MINE ALONE and many of the memories there bred are even now still so personal that they exclude the intrusion of strangers. How dare they do that?”

        Read that again, dude. There is an OR in the sentence. He is making reference to multiple PLACES (with an S) and then indicates the GREAT ones are on the Firehole. Otherwise, the sentence would go… “color plates are of places in Montana where…”. Keeping in mind FF had already published several books by the time he published this, I’d like to think he didn’t make an error. He meant the Firehole and probably left it out when he finally decided to hide his treasure because that was his favorite river bathing location as well and it provided too much insight. There was no going backwards.
        Look, you have a solid argument that Forrest's special place is along the Firehole based on the revisions, you may very well be right...but it's not the only reasonable conclusion that can be drawn. You're overselling the conclusion. The first sentence in the BDC article you cite has the disjunctive word "or" following a comma, meaning that sentence contains multiple clauses and an independent clause. The very next sentence begins with "those places along the Firehole." What does the demonstrative pronoun "those" modify? We can't possibly know because of the preceding sentence's multiple clauses.

        Is Forrest saying his special places were on the Firehole in Montana? Possibly, and that would be a mistake. Is Forrest saying those special places on the Firehole that were "his alone" were the same ones he led others when he was twelve and thirteen? Possibly. Was Forrest simply reminiscing about places and using placeholders to reference spots near West Yellowstone , and Montana, for a Bozeman newspaper? Possibly. Further, there's no proof that "all" of Forrest's special locations were along the Firehole. It would be a bit strange if that were the case, wouldn't you agree?

        Originally posted by FlyFishBrown View Post
        At least I’m open to understanding NMH and the Madison, but it’s blind supporters just keep giving me the same regurgitated BS and have no real answers for many contradicting statements FF made that don’t fit the location. I don’t need you to respond to me anymore. I’m looking for conversations with someone with an open mind who doesn’t have thin skin.
        To that end, I'm open to understanding other locations (like the 9/7 solve for the Firehole you claimed you would post) to challenge 9MH. But I'm tired of someone else expecting me to do hours worth of work to try and defend a few arguments they came up with against 9MH. To paraphrase AFC Richmond legend Roy Kent, none of us actually know. We're all just trying to use logic and reasoning to solve the poem. We're not trying to be personally attacked.
        Last edited by Crazy Midwesterner; 09-13-2021, 04:49 PM.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by FlyFishBrown View Post
          And other things are constantly nagging at me:

          1. FF said only one way/route to treasure. Anywhere along Madison can be reached multiple ways from wide canyon and road jumping sides. Why can’t I put in at 7 mile and hike back to far side at NMH? Vs Firehole canyon that at has steep walls and doesn’t allow for alternate routes. Also, river may shift in wide Madison canyon. Not so in Firehole, so it could still be good in 1000 years.

          2. In his early writings of Flywater (later redacted for TTOTC), FF all but says the special places were on the Firehole. All of a sudden, two years later he is stashing his chest on the Madison? Doesn’t jive.

          3. WWWH. Both FF and the Finder said it’s physically warm to the touch. Also, what about FF asking about putting your toe in it to see? Is the water still warm at MJ? FF writes about the warm waters of OJo mixing with the COLD water of the Firehole. If the water is cold at his favorite bathing spot, how can it be warm at MJ before it ends?

          4. Distance from MJ to Nine Mile is not really too far to walk as compared to what FF previously talks about (8-10 miles).

          5. If the chest was hidden at NMH, there would be no need to rush. The search tempo in Stanza 4 all of a sudden picks up (quickly, tarry scant). Doesn’t fit for a quiet stretch of the Madison where you may be inside a tree line and not visible.
          1. Yeah, maybe you have a point here. But I recall (off the top of my head) that FF made that statement in response to an emailed question about whether there were multiple ways to reach the treasure. His response was something like, "there's only one way I know of, following the poem." To me, that answer is more of the stock answers FF constantly gave during the chase: the poem is straightforward, don't overcook it, follow the poem, it's all you need to get to the treasure. Maybe I have the context of the statement wrong. Further, Rudy Greene has made multiple statements in threads here and on YouTube that the creek leading into 9MH can really only be accessed by crossing the river using the underwater lava shelf as a foot bridge. There simply is too much deadfall to reasonably approach it from another angle.

          2. Discussed this above. Fair criticism. You may be right.

          3. No, I don't recall FF AND the finder saying the water where WWWH was physically warm to the touch. I recall FF asking if one could dip their toe in it. I recall the finder saying the water was warm "to Forrest." Without some source material, I think this is incorrect paraphrasing.

          4. Eh, maybe. 4 miles is too far to walk (to me), and I'm in good shape and can go out and run 4 miles right now. That's about an hour of walking. Impractical. Further, your source material for 8-10 miles is not conclusive. Finally, others have concluded (reasonably, IMHO) that "not far, but too far to walk" is an instruction to drive to the put in location.

          5. I have no idea what stanza 4 is hinting at and you may well be on to something. I agree the tempo picks up. I don't know if that's an intentional crescendo in an effort to build drama within the poem, or actual advice. But I haven't found a good answer for what "tarry scant with marvel gaze" means in the context of the 9MH solve. That being said, I don't have much of an idea what it could mean in other solves other than advice from FF to not stand out there too long admiring the dang thing, and to just take the chest and get out of there.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Crazy Midwesterner View Post

            The language you use to criticize others directly leads to people posting defensively as if you're attacking them. When you're posting things like "[a]fter you read the original Flywater, come back at me" and then immediately follow that up with "but FF said no one except the Finder has correctly found hoB. Since this forum is full of your simple explanation, we all know it’s WRONG. Additionally, Flywater was written about the Firehole. You cannot deny that. Sorry" what on earth are you expecting in kind? You don't get to be a patronizing then accuse someone of having thin skin. I can be guilty of this too, but all of us need to have some perspective on the causality of responsive posts on here.

            For the record, FF said no one except the Finder has correctly identified HoB to him, at the time FF was asked the question. Vertigo's "simple explanation" was not published before Forrest's death. Thus, FF could not have had any idea of Vertigo's proposed solve. Thus, your conclusion that "it's WRONG," all caps, is not reasonable.



            Look, you have a solid argument that Forrest's special place is along the Firehole based on the revisions, you may very well be right...but it's not the only reasonable conclusion that can be drawn. You're overselling the conclusion. The first sentence in the BDC article you cite has the disjunctive word "or" following a comma, meaning that sentence contains multiple clauses and an independent clause. The very next sentence begins with "those places along the Firehole." What does the demonstrative pronoun "those" modify? We can't possibly know because of the preceding sentence's multiple clauses.

            Is Forrest saying his special places were on the Firehole in Montana? Possibly, and that would be a mistake. Is Forrest saying those special places on the Firehole that were "his alone" were the same ones he led others when he was twelve and thirteen? Possibly. Was Forrest simply reminiscing about places and using placeholders to reference spots near West Yellowstone , and Montana, for a Bozeman newspaper? Possibly. Further, there's no proof that "all" of Forrest's special locations were along the Firehole. It would be a bit strange if that were the case, wouldn't you agree?

            To that end, I'm open to understanding other locations (like the 9/7 solve for the Firehole you claimed you would post) to challenge 9MH. But I'm tired of someone else expecting me to do hours worth of work to try and defend a few arguments they came up with against 9MH. To paraphrase AFC Richmond legend Roy Kent, none of us actually know. We're all just trying to use logic and reasoning to solve the poem. We're not trying to be personally attacked.
            My original comments were not addressed to Vertigo. He entered the ring on his own fruition…

            And if you’re not willing to listen, you can never learn.
            Last edited by FlyFishBrown; 09-13-2021, 05:17 PM.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by FlyFishBrown View Post

              My original comments were not addressed to Vertigo. He entered the ring on his own fruition…

              And if you’re not willing to listen, you can never learn.
              Right back at you. If your mentality is confrontational rather than collaborative, people will not engage with you in the manner you wish. You took the first "swing" at Vertigo with your comment I already quoted: "but FF said no one except the Finder has correctly found hoB. Since this forum is full of your simple explanation, we all know it’s WRONG. " I demonstrated why that patronizing comment was not reasonable. Obviously that's going to upset someone. It upset me and it wasn't directed at me.

              On top of that, it's entirely unclear to me what Vertigo said to make you post "Wow, dude. You need to seriously grow some thicker skin and stop being so defensive about your precious NMH. "

              If you stop with the aggression, you're going to have a better time.

              Click image for larger version  Name:	youre-gonna-have-a-bad-time-southpark-ski-instructor.jpg Views:	2 Size:	11.9 KB ID:	336918
              Last edited by Crazy Midwesterner; 09-13-2021, 05:42 PM.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Crazy Midwesterner View Post

                Right back at you. If your mentality is confrontational rather than collaborative, people will not engage with you in the manner you wish. You took the first "swing" at Vertigo with your comment I already quoted: "but FF said no one except the Finder has correctly found hoB. Since this forum is full of your simple explanation, we all know it’s WRONG. " I demonstrated why that patronizing comment was not reasonable. Obviously that's going to upset someone. It upset me and it wasn't directed at me.

                On top of that, it's entirely unclear to me what Vertigo said to make you post "Wow, dude. You need to seriously grow some thicker skin and stop being so defensive about your precious NMH. "

                If you stop with the aggression, you're going to have a better time.

                Click image for larger version Name:	youre-gonna-have-a-bad-time-southpark-ski-instructor.jpg Views:	2 Size:	11.9 KB ID:	336918
                “Angling authors considered NMH the best place to catch brown trout. Forrest thought it was among the best places to catch brown trout. Yet it doesn't "seem right" to you for hoB?

                Sorry, I'll trust the expert anglers and Forrest himself.”





                Comment


                • Originally posted by FlyFishBrown View Post
                  1. FF said only one way/route to treasure. Anywhere along Madison can be reached multiple ways from wide canyon and road jumping sides. Why can’t I put in at 7 mile and hike back to far side at NMH? Vs Firehole canyon that at has steep walls and doesn’t allow for alternate routes. Also, river may shift in wide Madison canyon. Not so in Firehole, so it could still be good in 1000 years.
                  Again, paraphrasing causes problems. Forrest NEVER said there was only one physical route to the treasure. What he said is this:

                  "I have a question for Mr. Fenn:
                  When you hid your treasures, did you take the same path that is described in the poem, or were you able to skip some of the steps because of your familiarity with the area?
                  Thank you Curtis

                  The clues should be followed in order Curtis. There is no other way to my knowlege.f"


                  Source: https://mysteriouswritings.com/quest...enn-archive-1/

                  Forrest did not answer the question. He said nothing here about the path he took when he hid the treasure.

                  He recommended following the clues in order, because there was no other way for searchers to find the treasure, to his knowledge.

                  The clues are words in the poem. Following them in order is a thought process, not a physical one. Thus, Forrest's comment did not place any limitations on the physical route to the treasure.

                  Incidentally, master writer Fenn should have used a comma before "to my knowledge." As written, his sentence says there is no other way to arrive at his knowledge.

                  Comment


                  • I don't see any reason to use too much energy on people who are obviously not rational. Maybe some people are just obsessed by their own solution, making them blind to anything else.? Whenever I see someone claiming contradictions by FF and Jack or claiming someone lies etc - without actually giving any evidence of such, then I don't think it's worth pursuing for your own good.

                    I will say this though, Vertigo s solution as presented here, and the discussion that has followed, is by far the most impressive and rational solve it've seen in relation to the chase. All other solves have either leaps in logic and black and white thinking. And i've seen alot of solves. Many treasure hunts are actually simple, and this, I think, is not different. The key to FF's treasure not being found so soon despite the location/area at nine mile holse has been searched/outed, is simply that very few had actually crossed the river.
                    There are more evidence to this solve being correct, and together it is too overwhelming and when you have so many different sources and evidence pointing to the same location, the statistical probability to it being wrong is very slim.

                    Comment


                    • This is a great solve…but respectfully I disagree with how the poem is interpreted. It’s not to say it wasn’t along the Madison River though. If it was simple and straightforward as Forrest said it was, then should we discount the fact it took him 10 years to write and how he felt like an architect? After 10 years of making the poem work, why don’t you think he would’ve made “halt” and “walk” rhyme? Was it a cruel joke? He said people arrived at the first two clues and didn’t know it because they went right past the others…or something along those lines. How could you start at Madison junction and not know that was the first clue? It sounds appetizing to believe it was 9 mile, but I don’t see facts in this solve. Just my humble opinion though. Thanks for sharing.

                      Comment


                      • Knowlege
                        know-ledge
                        with an owl right in the middle of it. I’d expect an owl to be perched on a know-ledge!

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Crazy Midwesterner View Post

                          Thanks for this Vertigo. I had typed something similar (but much longer) over the weekend in response to @FlyFishBrown's comment on a separate thread involving one of my posts. I deleted it because it was leading to a big rabbit hole that ultimately didn't matter all that much. I agree that the original version of Flywater that was posted in the Bozeman Daily Chronicle is ambiguous if you're trying to draw a concrete solution-related conclusion. In the BDC article, Forrest talked about "Several of the wonderful color plates are of places where I fished in Montana as a kid under the tutelage of my father . . . " The very next sentence says: "Those great places on the Firehole, which were personal secrets to me then, are now busy with the flourish of fishermen...." Forrest removed these references from TTOTC. I have no clue what that means. We cannot conclusively establish anything by those edits. Like you mentioned, maybe the edits are fixing an inaccuracy, maybe they are related to the treasure. One thing I thought of when assessing those edits is that the Madison connects the Firehole to Montana. Maybe FF removed the places because he was worried they would point too strongly to the area where rivers lead out of Yellowstone and into Montana? We have no way of knowing for sure.

                          As for the first part of your comment regarding paraphrasing/interpretations of FF's statements (and their significance), I agree. Too much weight is placed on what may very well be jokes or throwaway comments. I don't put much stock into the "water high" means you must throw a bicycle into the water. AFAIK, that statement was made via email in 2012 when FF answered a question in "Forrest Gets Mail". I can't find what the original question was, but I know forrest's statement was: "What is wrong with me just riding my bike out there and throwing it in the 'water high' when I am through with it?" What on earth does that question mean? I don't see how that question can be used to prove or disprove a solve at all.

                          But, that all being said, I am curious to see FlyFishBrown's proposed Firehole solve when it is ready. I thought it was coming out September 7th, but it seems like the poster is collecting more data.
                          Thanks Crazy Midwesterner, I appreciate your comments. I think you nailed it when you said we cannot conclusively establish anything by the edits in Flywater.

                          I also agree that searchers place too much weight on some of Forrest's comments. Not all comments are created equal. They have to be evaluated in context. What was the timing of the comment? What was the setting? Was it written after careful consideration, or spoken off the cuff? Who was the audience? etc.

                          Forrest provided clues in the poem and a few hints in the remainder of TTOTC. It's abundantly clear to me that he did not want to provide any more clues. So when people pressed him for more, or tried to trick him for more, he often deflected by teasing or by providing useless information. Examples include that the treasure is more than 300 miles west of Toledo, or between 5,000 and 10,200 feet in elevation. Gosh, thanks Forrest. He openly stated that the "clues" he provided on the Today Show were not clues at all and that they weren't going to help anyone find the treasure.

                          Throwing his bike in the "water high" could be nothing more than a teasing reference to a phrase in the poem -- something like a restrained version of the e-mail he sent Dal in Sept 2011:

                          "You guys were getting too close so I went to where Grayling Creek dumps into Hebgen Lake and retrieved the chest. Here are the clues you should have followed It was so easy:

                          Grayling is a fish so you should eat it. “In the wood.” so you cook it with wood on the fire and you will then see the blaze. Warm waters halt after Terri finishes washing the dishes. The canyon named Down is just south where the boat is. It was really hard rowing out to where the water grasses were without a paddle. I should have walked out there but it was too far and the brown bears are all over that place and I was too meek at the time. You should always look quickly down so you don’t step on the bracelet that fell out of the chest when I was hiding it in the willows. Now you can take those clues and go in peace. Then, this afternoon I hid the chest where warm waters start. Tell Crayton to fill his tanks. You can get your rubber duck and go with him. Terri sent me a photo of you and Crayton plotting against me with your maps. Next time buy a map of North America. The Amazon is not a good place to look. f"

                          Source: https://dalneitzelblog.wordpress.com...ests-solution/
                          Last edited by Vertigo; 09-15-2021, 10:27 AM.

                          Comment


                          • Anyone, Please point to the line in the Poem where it says NMH is the area to find the treasure.

                            It appears all this confidence coming from the self-anointed ones, originates from Gack/Condor2 and/or their own confirmation biases, and not from the Poem.

                            A more appropriate and productive Sticky would be a thread titled: “All of the information you need to find the treasure is in the poem. - f ” And only comments or ideas fitting this criterion will be accepted.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by colokidd View Post
                              Anyone, Please point to the line in the Poem where it says NMH is the area to find the treasure.

                              It appears all this confidence coming from the self-anointed ones, originates from Gack/Condor2 and/or their own confirmation biases, and not from the Poem.

                              A more appropriate and productive Sticky would be a thread titled: “All of the information you need to find the treasure is in the poem. - f ” And only comments or ideas fitting this criterion will be accepted.
                              Many searchers were drawn to the location years before the treasure was found, and years before Jack was even known. Clearly, the location is not dependent on Jack's statements.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Vertigo View Post

                                Many searchers were drawn to the location years before the treasure was found, and years before Jack was even known. Clearly, the location is not dependent on Jack's statements.
                                Gack’s story reinforced their confirmation biases to a point that they now proudly proclaim the area of the treasure. For instance, where in the Poem does it point to NMH? If you don't know then you are in that area entirely based on your confirmation biases and/or Gack.
                                Last edited by colokidd; 09-16-2021, 06:49 PM.

                                Comment

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