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  • Originally posted by elbert_ainstein View Post
    Jack seems to rule out the idea that lodgepole pines are "heavy loads":
    Click image for larger version

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    Perhaps because he knows the heavy loads in the poem are referring to the huge ass boulders at 9 Mile Hole.

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    • Originally posted by elbert_ainstein View Post
      Jack seems to rule out the idea that lodgepole pines are "heavy loads":
      Click image for larger version

Name:	heavyloads.png
Views:	332
Size:	59.6 KB
ID:	334182
      Thanks for sharing. I agree, that seems to rule out lodge pole as heavy loads and crosses that video off the list as a slip up.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by elbert_ainstein View Post
        Jack seems to rule out the idea that lodgepole pines are "heavy loads":
        Click image for larger version

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Views:	332
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ID:	334182
        Maybe I'm taking crazy pills, but to me Jack doesn't answer the question posed to him in that email. Jack evades the question.

        The question asks if Forrest is giving the definition of "heavy loads" in the poem when he refers to pulling logs two miles across Hebgen Lake as "driving a heavy load." The question can be answered with a "yes;" the question can be answered with a "no." Jack doesn't say yes or no. Instead, Jack answers if Forrest revealed answers to "any clues" in that video. What the heck is a clue anyway? Hasn't this forum had debates for years over the definition of a clue vs. a hint? In the context of the poem, aren't "heavy loads" and "water high" grouped together and are not separate clues? etc.

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        • Originally posted by Crazy Midwesterner View Post

          Maybe I'm taking crazy pills, but to me Jack doesn't answer the question posed to him in that email. Jack evades the question.

          The question asks if Forrest is giving the definition of "heavy loads" in the poem when he refers to pulling logs two miles across Hebgen Lake as "driving a heavy load." The question can be answered with a "yes;" the question can be answered with a "no." Jack doesn't say yes or no. Instead, Jack answers if Forrest revealed answers to "any clues" in that video. What the heck is a clue anyway? Hasn't this forum had debates for years over the definition of a clue vs. a hint? In the context of the poem, aren't "heavy loads" and "water high" grouped together and are not separate clues? etc.
          You could be right. Maybe "heavy loads and water high" is a hint rather than a clue. As I recall clues get you closer to the treasure and hints help with the clues. Heavy loads could just be a hint describing the creek.

          Here's another idea I had. In what follows I’m going to assume that the treasure was on the south side of the river near NMH:

          If heavy loads doesn’t refer to the downed lodgepole pines along the creek then water high probably doesn’t refer to water further up the creek. In that case the poem isn’t telling us to go up the creek at NMH.

          If heavy loads doesn’t mean the lodgepole pines then it most likely means the large boulders in the Madison River near NMH. Then water high would be the deeper water upriver from the boulders. IMO this means the entire third stanza is describing the location where you cross the river. Since the next clue after crossing the river is “found the blaze” this suggests that the blaze was near the river crossing.


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          • Originally posted by minotaur_moreno View Post

            I’m starting to think WWWH is Ojo Caliente and the chest is somewhere along the Firehole. Both are indirectly named (picture of Ojo Caliente is in Flywater and Firehole is named in the Bozeman Chronicle article) but not named in TTOTC and he directly talks about being alone there.

            In my mind, we are down to three:
            1. Firehole a few miles past Ojo Caliente Hot Spring
            2. Nine Mile Hole on the Madison
            3. Slough Creek < 1 mile from Slough Creek Campground

            What’s interesting is Jack said he didn’t read Rambling & Rumblings until after he found the chest. That’s the only place I know of where f said only one person could fish there.
            What picture of Ojo Caliente is in Flywater? My copy of the book doesn’t have such. I also have a solve for the Firehole and would love to compare notes. Thanks!

            Comment


            • If I am wrong and the MJ is WWWH instead of Ojo, could this be what FF knows to be hoB along the Madison? While this hole is/was not AT upper Nine Mile, it would be right in terms of putting in BELOW it at upper Nine Mile.
              Last edited by FlyFishBrown; 09-12-2021, 11:59 AM.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by FlyFishBrown View Post
                If I am wrong and the MJ is WWWH instead of Ojo, could this be what FF knows to be hoB along the Madison? While this hole is/was not AT upper Nine Mile, it would be right in terms of putting in BELOW it at upper Nine Mile.
                The deep spring hole where the nine pound brown was taken is what Forrest called the Water Hole. Young Forrest was pictured at the Water Hole in TTOTC.

                If you believe the Water Hole is the home of Brown, then putting in at Nine Mile Hole means putting in 2 miles below the home of Brown. That is too far a distance, IMO.

                That leaves you with two alternatives:

                a) HoB = Water Hole, so put in just below the Water Hole, no more than a couple hundred feet.
                b) HoB = Nine Mile Hole, so put in just below Nine Mile Hole, no more than a couple hundred feet.

                Both spots feature a creek, and both spots were considered TOP SECRET by Forrest (see Ramblings & Rumblings).

                However, I believe Nine Mile Hole is a better fit for subsequent clues, and for the overarching theme of being alone.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Vertigo View Post

                  The deep spring hole where the nine pound brown was taken is what Forrest called the Water Hole. Young Forrest was pictured at the Water Hole in TTOTC.

                  If you believe the Water Hole is the home of Brown, then putting in at Nine Mile Hole means putting in 2 miles below the home of Brown. That is too far a distance, IMO.

                  That leaves you with two alternatives:

                  a) HoB = Water Hole, so put in just below the Water Hole, no more than a couple hundred feet.
                  b) HoB = Nine Mile Hole, so put in just below Nine Mile Hole, no more than a couple hundred feet.

                  Both spots feature a creek, and both spots were considered TOP SECRET by Forrest (see Ramblings & Rumblings).

                  However, I believe Nine Mile Hole is a better fit for subsequent clues, and for the overarching theme of being alone.
                  I thought the first creek was at Western end of Big Bend and hole was further down where Madison again turned toward road where big lunker was allegedly caught. I agree that NMH is almost too far down to put in if this is what FF was thinking.

                  Nothing at NMH seems right for hoB. There is no water high (deep) to throw a bicycle into. The old pond doesn’t fit.

                  I have a solve for the Firehole but I’m trying to be open to the possibility of the Madison. Nothing fits neatly. No easy HoB.

                  And other things are constantly nagging at me:

                  1. FF said only one way/route to treasure. Anywhere along Madison can be reached multiple ways from wide canyon and road jumping sides. Why can’t I put in at 7 mile and hike back to far side at NMH? Vs Firehole canyon that at has steep walls and doesn’t allow for alternate routes. Also, river may shift in wide Madison canyon. Not so in Firehole, so it could still be good in 1000 years.

                  2. In his early writings of Flywater (later redacted for TTOTC), FF all but says the special places were on the Firehole. All of a sudden, two years later he is stashing his chest on the Madison? Doesn’t jive.

                  3. WWWH. Both FF and the Finder said it’s physically warm to the touch. Also, what about FF asking about putting your toe in it to see? Is the water still warm at MJ? FF writes about the warm waters of OJo mixing with the COLD water of the Firehole. If the water is cold at his favorite bathing spot, how can it be warm at MJ before it ends?

                  4. Distance from MJ to Nine Mile is not really too far to walk as compared to what FF previously talks about (8-10 miles).

                  5. If the chest was hidden at NMH, there would be no need to rush. The search tempo in Stanza 4 all of a sudden picks up (quickly, tarry scant). Doesn’t fit for a quiet stretch of the Madison where you may be inside a tree line and not visible.
                  Last edited by FlyFishBrown; 09-12-2021, 02:52 PM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by FlyFishBrown View Post

                    1. FF said only one way/route to treasure. Anywhere along Madison can be reached multiple ways from wide canyon and road jumping sides. Why can’t I put in at 7 mile and hike back to far side at NMH? Vs Firehole canyon that at has steep walls and doesn’t allow for alternate routes. Also, river may shift in wide Madison canyon. Not so in Firehole, so it could still be good in 1000 years.

                    2. In his early writings of Flywater (later redacted for TTOTC), FF all but says the special places were on the Firehole. All of a sudden, two years later he is stashing his chest on the Madison? Doesn’t jive.

                    3. WWWH. Both FF and the Finder said it’s physically warm to the touch. Also, what about FF asking about putting your toe in it to see? Is the water still warm at MJ? FF writes about the warm waters of OJo mixing with the COLD water of the Firehole. If the water is cold at his favorite bathing spot, how can it be warm at MJ before it ends?

                    4. Distance from MJ to Nine Mile is not really too far to walk as compared to what FF previously talks about (8-10 miles).

                    5. If the chest was hidden at NMH, there would be no need to rush. The search tempo in Stanza 4 all of a sudden picks up (quickly, tarry scant). Doesn’t fit for a quiet stretch of the Madison where you may be inside a tree line and not visible.
                    1. NMH (nine mile hole) is only big enough for one fisherman. FF has stated this.
                    2. NMH was one of his favourite fishing places. I don't think he has said what he considered his special place would be..
                    3. the warm water is warm to the touch, not WWWH. There's a difference., or it would only be www.

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                    • [QUOTE=ventricity;n336790]

                      1. NMH (nine mile hole) is only big enough for one fisherman. FF has stated this.
                      2. NMH was one of his favourite fishing places. I don't think he has said what he considered his special place would be..
                      3. the warm water is warm to the touch, not WWWH. There's a difference., or it would only be www.

                      Thanks for the reply but you didn’t address any of my list. After you read the original Flywater, come back at me. And, Forest said the Firehole was cold so it can’t be warm and halting somewhere else. I don’t dispute that NMH was one of several of his Top secret spots, but it still doesn’t fit many of the things FF said about where the chest was hidden.



                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by FlyFishBrown View Post

                        I thought the first creek was at Western end of Big Bend and hole was further down where Madison again turned toward road where big lunker was allegedly caught. I agree that NMH is almost too far down to put in if this is what FF was thinking.

                        Nothing at NMH seems right for hoB. There is no water high (deep) to throw a bicycle into. The old pond doesn’t fit.

                        I have a solve for the Firehole but I’m trying to be open to the possibility of the Madison. Nothing fits neatly. No easy HoB.

                        And other things are constantly nagging at me:

                        1. FF said only one way/route to treasure. Anywhere along Madison can be reached multiple ways from wide canyon and road jumping sides. Why can’t I put in at 7 mile and hike back to far side at NMH? Vs Firehole canyon that at has steep walls and doesn’t allow for alternate routes. Also, river may shift in wide Madison canyon. Not so in Firehole, so it could still be good in 1000 years.

                        2. In his early writings of Flywater (later redacted for TTOTC), FF all but says the special places were on the Firehole. All of a sudden, two years later he is stashing his chest on the Madison? Doesn’t jive.

                        3. WWWH. Both FF and the Finder said it’s physically warm to the touch. Also, what about FF asking about putting your toe in it to see? Is the water still warm at MJ? FF writes about the warm waters of OJo mixing with the COLD water of the Firehole. If the water is cold at his favorite bathing spot, how can it be warm at MJ before it ends?

                        4. Distance from MJ to Nine Mile is not really too far to walk as compared to what FF previously talks about (8-10 miles).

                        5. If the chest was hidden at NMH, there would be no need to rush. The search tempo in Stanza 4 all of a sudden picks up (quickly, tarry scant). Doesn’t fit for a quiet stretch of the Madison where you may be inside a tree line and not visible.
                        Nine Mile Hole was the most renowned fishing hole on the Madison, within Yellowstone. I've posted ample evidence of this, written by some of the most celebrated angling authors of the last century (Ernest Schwiebert, Howard Back, Charles Brooks) and others (W.D. Wetherell, Kim Eagle).

                        More importantly, Nine Mile Hole was among the three best fishing holes on the Madison, according to Forrest. In Ramblings & Rumblings, he described the three spots as TOP SECRET, but placed extra emphasis on Nine Mile Hole, as it had room for only one fisherman.

                        Angling authors considered NMH the best place to catch brown trout. Forrest thought it was among the best places to catch brown trout. Yet it doesn't "seem right" to you for hoB?

                        Sorry, I'll trust the expert anglers and Forrest himself.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Vertigo View Post

                          Nine Mile Hole was the most renowned fishing hole on the Madison, within Yellowstone. I've posted ample evidence of this, written by some of the most celebrated angling authors of the last century (Ernest Schwiebert, Howard Back, Charles Brooks) and others (W.D. Wetherell, Kim Eagle).

                          More importantly, Nine Mile Hole was among the three best fishing holes on the Madison, according to Forrest. In Ramblings & Rumblings, he described the three spots as TOP SECRET, but placed extra emphasis on Nine Mile Hole, as it had room for only one fisherman.

                          Angling authors considered NMH the best place to catch brown trout. Forrest thought it was among the best places to catch brown trout. Yet it doesn't "seem right" to you for hoB?

                          Sorry, I'll trust the expert anglers and Forrest himself.
                          I don’t disagree about NMH being good fishing for brown trout, but FF said no one except the Finder has correctly found hoB. Since this forum is full of your simple explanation, we all know it’s WRONG. Additionally, Flywater was written about the Firehole. You cannot deny that. Sorry.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by FlyFishBrown View Post

                            I don’t disagree about NMH being good fishing for brown trout, but FF said no one except the Finder has correctly found hoB. Since this forum is full of your simple explanation, we all know it’s WRONG. Additionally, Flywater was written about the Firehole. You cannot deny that. Sorry.
                            "FF said no one except the Finder has correctly found hoB" is poorly paraphrased and even more poorly interpreted. People can say whatever they like about Jack, but he clearly wasn't lazy. He didn't rely on quotes that were poorly paraphrased or misinterpreted by other searchers. He sought out actual quotes by Forrest and developed his own interpretations.

                            Your statement is based on a purported e-mail exchange between a searcher and Forrest that went like this:

                            "I know you will not disclose the location, but was wondering if you would tell me whether anyone other than the retriever gave you the correct Home of Brown. I simple yes or no would make my day."

                            "No they did not sir. f "


                            Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/FindingFenn...2/fenn_speaks/

                            Let's assume that home of Brown = Nine Mile Hole. There are countless ways to discuss brown trout and Nine Mile Hole with Forrest, without "giving him the correct Home of Brown."

                            1. Hey Forrest, does home of Brown mean the home of brown trout?
                            2. In my solve, the home of Brown is the home of brown trout.
                            3. I believe that home of Brown is a fishing spot somewhere in Yellowstone.
                            4. I'm convinced that home of Brown is a fishing spot somewhere on the Madison.
                            5. I searched the length of the river from Madison Junction to Baker's Hole.
                            6. I spent the entire day searching for the treasure at Nine Mile Hole.
                            7. Others have already searched the creek at Nine Mile Hole.
                            8. Hey Forrest, is Nine Mile Hole the home of Brown?
                            9. The Madison is beautiful. I really enjoyed the scenery at Nine Mile Hole.
                            10. I found the rock at Nine Mile Hole, in front of which your father was pictured in TTOTC.

                            Searchers could have said any of the above and Forrest would have been answering that question 100% truthfully.

                            You wield the word "simple" to describe my explanation like it's some sort of insult, when in fact, it's the ultimate compliment! A simple explanation is what every searcher should be striving for.

                            Yes, an early version of Flywater spoke about those great places on the Firehole. The same version said those places were in Montana! The Firehole is not in Montana, so Forrest clearly made a mistake. It's not possible to know if he erred by saying they were in Montana, by saying they were on the Firehole, or both. He eliminated those references entirely in the TTOTC version of Flywater. It's not possible to know if he eliminated them because they were erroneous, because he was worried they would lead to the treasure location, or because they would mislead people to incorrect locations. All of those are possible.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Vertigo View Post

                              "FF said no one except the Finder has correctly found hoB" is poorly paraphrased and even more poorly interpreted. People can say whatever they like about Jack, but he clearly wasn't lazy. He didn't rely on quotes that were poorly paraphrased or misinterpreted by other searchers. He sought out actual quotes by Forrest and developed his own interpretations.

                              Your statement is based on a purported e-mail exchange between a searcher and Forrest that went like this:

                              "I know you will not disclose the location, but was wondering if you would tell me whether anyone other than the retriever gave you the correct Home of Brown. I simple yes or no would make my day."

                              "No they did not sir. f "


                              Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/FindingFenn...2/fenn_speaks/

                              Let's assume that home of Brown = Nine Mile Hole. There are countless ways to discuss brown trout and Nine Mile Hole with Forrest, without "giving him the correct Home of Brown."

                              1. Hey Forrest, does home of Brown mean the home of brown trout?
                              2. In my solve, the home of Brown is the home of brown trout.
                              3. I believe that home of Brown is a fishing spot somewhere in Yellowstone.
                              4. I'm convinced that home of Brown is a fishing spot somewhere on the Madison.
                              5. I searched the length of the river from Madison Junction to Baker's Hole.
                              6. I spent the entire day searching for the treasure at Nine Mile Hole.
                              7. Others have already searched the creek at Nine Mile Hole.
                              8. Hey Forrest, is Nine Mile Hole the home of Brown?
                              9. The Madison is beautiful. I really enjoyed the scenery at Nine Mile Hole.
                              10. I found the rock at Nine Mile Hole, in front of which your father was pictured in TTOTC.

                              Searchers could have said any of the above and Forrest would have been answering that question 100% truthfully.

                              You wield the word "simple" to describe my explanation like it's some sort of insult, when in fact, it's the ultimate compliment! A simple explanation is what every searcher should be striving for.

                              Yes, an early version of Flywater spoke about those great places on the Firehole. The same version said those places were in Montana! The Firehole is not in Montana, so Forrest clearly made a mistake. It's not possible to know if he erred by saying they were in Montana, by saying they were on the Firehole, or both. He eliminated those references entirely in the TTOTC version of Flywater. It's not possible to know if he eliminated them because they were erroneous, because he was worried they would lead to the treasure location, or because they would mislead people to incorrect locations. All of those are possible.
                              Wow, dude. You need to seriously grow some thicker skin and stop being so defensive about your precious NMH. Simple is what’s surely needed. It’s wasn’t any insult.

                              https://www.bozemandailychronicle.co...111f540db.html

                              “Several of the wonderful color plates are of places where I fished in Montana as a kid under the tutelage of my father, OR where I guided others for pay when I was but twelve and thirteen.

                              Those great places on the Firehole, which were personal secrets to me then, are now busy with the flourish of fishermen and women who cast a midge or floating cadis upon the same waters, never knowing I had been there, or even caring yes or no. I always thought that space was MINE ALONE and many of the memories there bred are even now still so personal that they exclude the intrusion of strangers. How dare they do that?”

                              Read that again, dude. There is an OR in the sentence. He is making reference to multiple PLACES (with an S) and then indicates the GREAT ones are on the Firehole. Otherwise, the sentence would go… “color plates are of places in Montana where…”. Keeping in mind FF had already published several books by the time he published this, I’d like to think he didn’t make an error. He meant the Firehole and probably left it out when he finally decided to hide his treasure because that was his favorite river bathing location as well and it provided too much insight. There was no going backwards.

                              At least I’m open to understanding NMH and the Madison, but it’s blind supporters just keep giving me the same regurgitated BS and have no real answers for many contradicting statements FF made that don’t fit the location. I don’t need you to respond to me anymore. I’m looking for conversations with someone with an open mind who doesn’t have thin skin.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Vertigo View Post
                                "FF said no one except the Finder has correctly found hoB" is poorly paraphrased and even more poorly interpreted. People can say whatever they like about Jack, but he clearly wasn't lazy. He didn't rely on quotes that were poorly paraphrased or misinterpreted by other searchers. He sought out actual quotes by Forrest and developed his own interpretations.

                                Yes, an early version of Flywater spoke about those great places on the Firehole. The same version said those places were in Montana! The Firehole is not in Montana, so Forrest clearly made a mistake. It's not possible to know if he erred by saying they were in Montana, by saying they were on the Firehole, or both. He eliminated those references entirely in the TTOTC version of Flywater. It's not possible to know if he eliminated them because they were erroneous, because he was worried they would lead to the treasure location, or because they would mislead people to incorrect locations. All of those are possible.
                                Thanks for this Vertigo. I had typed something similar (but much longer) over the weekend in response to @FlyFishBrown's comment on a separate thread involving one of my posts. I deleted it because it was leading to a big rabbit hole that ultimately didn't matter all that much. I agree that the original version of Flywater that was posted in the Bozeman Daily Chronicle is ambiguous if you're trying to draw a concrete solution-related conclusion. In the BDC article, Forrest talked about "Several of the wonderful color plates are of places where I fished in Montana as a kid under the tutelage of my father . . . " The very next sentence says: "Those great places on the Firehole, which were personal secrets to me then, are now busy with the flourish of fishermen...." Forrest removed these references from TTOTC. I have no clue what that means. We cannot conclusively establish anything by those edits. Like you mentioned, maybe the edits are fixing an inaccuracy, maybe they are related to the treasure. One thing I thought of when assessing those edits is that the Madison connects the Firehole to Montana. Maybe FF removed the places because he was worried they would point too strongly to the area where rivers lead out of Yellowstone and into Montana? We have no way of knowing for sure.

                                As for the first part of your comment regarding paraphrasing/interpretations of FF's statements (and their significance), I agree. Too much weight is placed on what may very well be jokes or throwaway comments. I don't put much stock into the "water high" means you must throw a bicycle into the water. AFAIK, that statement was made via email in 2012 when FF answered a question in "Forrest Gets Mail". I can't find what the original question was, but I know forrest's statement was: "What is wrong with me just riding my bike out there and throwing it in the 'water high' when I am through with it?" What on earth does that question mean? I don't see how that question can be used to prove or disprove a solve at all.

                                But, that all being said, I am curious to see FlyFishBrown's proposed Firehole solve when it is ready. I thought it was coming out September 7th, but it seems like the poster is collecting more data.

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