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Everything But The Blaze -- Madison (Nine Mile Hole)

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  • Originally posted by Redneck Girl View Post

    Here are a couple references for Soda Butte.

    https://www.yellowstone.co/sodabutte.htm
    “Superintendent Norris used the term "Soda Butte Medicinal Springs" for the seepage of warm water on the creek side of Soda Butte in 1879, and he shortened that to "Soda Butte Springs" in 1880.2

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/wyojones/44494700035
    “There are several small, low volume springs along the creek at the base of the travertine platform that the 20’ high cone sits on that are currently active and account for the sulfurous smell common at the cone.”

    I’m not entirely convinced that Soda Butte is WWWH. Even though there appears to be warm water coming out of it, there’s still the problem of explaining the word “halt”. Maybe the streams of warm water halt (stop moving temporarily) when they reach Soda Butte Creek. Or, like flyer said, maybe halt means lame. As I said previously, the reason I like Soda Butte is because it appears to be the only choice for WWWH in the area. I don't know if warm creek is still warm by the time it crosses the border into Wyoming.

    I haven’t ruled out the Firehole for WWWH. Your posts and Jack’s statements have convinced me that warm water must feel warm to the touch. Since the Flywater story in TTOTC was originally written about the Firehole, that could be a hint. The problem I have with the Firehole is that there are too many choices for WWWH. In an effort to keep it simple and straightforward, I’d probably choose Old Faithful. Was it just a coincidence that Forrest mentioned the family’s old faithful car in the chapter “In Love with Yellowstone”?
    I certainly can’t say for certain either about Soda Butte being WWWH but, a haven’t heard anything better. Here’s a couple more supporting statements.

    1. The geyser itself is dormant so possibly a “halt” in warm water flow. But only temporary because the warm water then seeps out around the geyser.
    2. The reason the geysers is dormant is because it’s solidified so there’s no room inside for the warm water anymore. Many people believe Forrest is talking to this when he referred to his favorite drink (Grapette) in TTOTC- Gold and More. The first part of that chapter is worth rereading and thinking about geysers as you read it as a hint to WWWH.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by flyer View Post

      Soda Butte is dormant. Which means halting or lame. There are warm waters that still come out of the soda butte geyser at a small flow level. Much less than it used too. It used to have a large flow, now a very small flow into soda butte creek there.

      I am not trying to convince you on soda butte just stating the information at that site. Even though I like the soda butte solve I also like Lower geyser basin and norris geyser basin as well.
      Well its OK if you ARE trying to convince me. I'm looking to be convinced of anything. Thanks for the info - it's helpful.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Redneck Girl View Post

        Here are a couple references for Soda Butte.

        https://www.yellowstone.co/sodabutte.htm
        “Superintendent Norris used the term "Soda Butte Medicinal Springs" for the seepage of warm water on the creek side of Soda Butte in 1879, and he shortened that to "Soda Butte Springs" in 1880.2

        https://www.flickr.com/photos/wyojones/44494700035
        “There are several small, low volume springs along the creek at the base of the travertine platform that the 20’ high cone sits on that are currently active and account for the sulfurous smell common at the cone.”

        I’m not entirely convinced that Soda Butte is WWWH. Even though there appears to be warm water coming out of it, there’s still the problem of explaining the word “halt”. Maybe the streams of warm water halt (stop moving temporarily) when they reach Soda Butte Creek. Or, like flyer said, maybe halt means lame. As I said previously, the reason I like Soda Butte is because it appears to be the only choice for WWWH in the area. I don't know if warm creek is still warm by the time it crosses the border into Wyoming.

        I haven’t ruled out the Firehole for WWWH. Your posts and Jack’s statements have convinced me that warm water must feel warm to the touch. Since the Flywater story in TTOTC was originally written about the Firehole, that could be a hint. The problem I have with the Firehole is that there are too many choices for WWWH. In an effort to keep it simple and straightforward, I’d probably choose Old Faithful. Was it just a coincidence that Forrest mentioned the family’s old faithful car in the chapter “In Love with Yellowstone”?
        Thanks, that's good info. I'm leaving Soda Butte open as a possibility.

        I considered Old Faithful. I even had this crazy thought: what if there is an understood object to the sentence "Begin it where warm waters halt." My wife made me think of this because she has been known to assume an understood object. What if the understood object is "people". Where warm waters halt <people>. Well if that doesn't describe Old Faithful, I don't know what does.

        But I'm still going with the obvious to me which is Ojo Caliente, because I think that's the last place on the river as you go downstream that you can swim in warm to the touch water (unless someone can provide evidence otherwise).

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Ozzy View Post

          I certainly can’t say for certain either about Soda Butte being WWWH but, a haven’t heard anything better. Here’s a couple more supporting statements.

          1. The geyser itself is dormant so possibly a “halt” in warm water flow. But only temporary because the warm water then seeps out around the geyser.
          2. The reason the geysers is dormant is because it’s solidified so there’s no room inside for the warm water anymore. Many people believe Forrest is talking to this when he referred to his favorite drink (Grapette) in TTOTC- Gold and More. The first part of that chapter is worth rereading and thinking about geysers as you read it as a hint to WWWH.
          Thanks. Again, that's good info. I think I get it now - all this stuff is making me want to go to Yellowstone. (I've been there three times: 1999, 2008 and 2016)

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Must Listengood View Post

            Thanks, that's good info. I'm leaving Soda Butte open as a possibility.

            I considered Old Faithful. I even had this crazy thought: what if there is an understood object to the sentence "Begin it where warm waters halt." My wife made me think of this because she has been known to assume an understood object. What if the understood object is "people". Where warm waters halt <people>. Well if that doesn't describe Old Faithful, I don't know what does.

            But I'm still going with the obvious to me which is Ojo Caliente, because I think that's the last place on the river as you go downstream that you can swim in warm to the touch water (unless someone can provide evidence otherwise).
            I had a solve where warm waters was people stopping at a location. That's when I thought it was more of a riddle. But the tip your toe in it plus Jack confirming it was actually physical warm water(s) shot that idea down.
            I also thought of Old Faithful for the geyser part of it, but that would be "where warm water(singular) halts" so it has to be more than once source of warm water halting imo.

            The one thing that bothers me is FF said something like "there are hundreds or thousands or many places in the rockies WWWH" This doesn't make sense to me because in the rocky mountains water is either ICE friggen cold or hot as in burn your body hot from geothermal sources. Rivers like the Firehole and Gibbon seem very unique that they have "warm" relatively speaking temperatures but not hot or super hot or super cold.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Cary_Galloway View Post

              The one thing that bothers me is FF said something like "there are hundreds or thousands or many places in the rockies WWWH" This doesn't make sense to me because in the rocky mountains water is either ICE friggen cold or hot as in burn your body hot from geothermal sources. Rivers like the Firehole and Gibbon seem very unique that they have "warm" relatively speaking temperatures but not hot or super hot or super cold.
              Maybe this will help. Here are some email questions I sent to Jack on April 10:

              1. When Forrest said there are many places in the Rocky Mountains WWWH, did he mean places that are the same (or similar) to the
              WWWH in the correct solve? I ask because some people think this means there are many ideas people might come up with for places in the Rocky Mountains WWWH.
              I think he was saying there are lots of places where that phrase could be used, not places that are clones of the place in the poem
              2. If you answered yes to the previous question then does “and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe” mean “and nearly all of the many places in the Rocky Mountains WWWH are north of Santa Fe”? I ask because some people think this just means that nearly all of the Rocky Mountains are north of Santa Fe.
              Yes, because most of the Rockies are north of there
              3. Does “Look at the big picture” mean you need to make an educated guess at WWWH and see if you can then get the other clues (canyon down, TFTW, etc.) to make sense?
              No

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Vertigo View Post

                I'm thinking about the blaze and mulling over Jack's comments about it. That one about a hint in the book intrigues me most, being a poem/book purist.

                What did you mean by your final sentence?

                "I will keep looking for the one that gave me some confidence in what the blaze is."
                OK, I did do a little more research and I finally found what I was thinking of, but I don't think it's going to convince anyone. There is a hint in the book. It's just a hint, so there's nothing that is definitive about what the hint is. So bear with me a second.

                Understand, I was convinced for two years that the blaze was Chama Peak (Chama means blaze) at a point that the poem takes you where the peak just sticks up above the horizon and is visible - you have to be at exactly the right spot to see it. What really got me was that I followed the directions of the poem, which was partially based on orienteering directions and I got to that spot. Then I said, OK what could the blaze be. And lo and behold, there is Chama Peak sticking up just above a small hill on the horizon. Move 20 feet to the left, and it disappears. Move 20 feet to the right and its gone. Man, I thought I really had something. I thought the poem was written from the perspective of a pilot - a navigator using landmark and compass directions.

                Wrong. Apparently it takes (and this really surprised me) an English major to understand the poem. Sure, I also understood the importance of words, but given Forrest's nature and his recurring desire to break the rules, I thought it was more about obscure and old definitions of words, and also what I would call "redneck wordplay." Nope, apparently not. I actually feel a little misled by Forrest about that. And I don't see his pilot navigator instincts showing up either which is also pretty surprising to me. This poem is all about applying good English to the description of a fly fishing trip. That's mostly what I now believe. Really obvious - I'm pretty surprised it wasn't found 5 or 6 years ago.

                So all of this is a lot simpler than I thought. I was not into big rabbit holes or more obscure associations or ciphers or anagrams. I knew it wasn't like that, but still, it is apparently shockingly simple and obvious. And written in straightforward plain English.

                So with that in mind, I think the blaze is a mark on a tree, a stump, or a rock, probably carved deeply. I think that mark is an asterisk. I believe TTOTC is telling me its an asterisk. Page 15. Sooner or later our lives are nothing but an asterisk in a book that was never written. Then the page ends in an asterisk after he takes his first few steps.

                The asterisk is his life. It's also where all the lines come together or cross (themes he discusses). There might even be a "canopy of asterisks" there. But I believe there is an asterisk there which represents his life. The treasure being right there below it.

                After reading TTOTC and paying close attention to page 15, and his other themes of life and death, which indicate we are all just an asterisk in time, we then have these words from Jack:

                The relevance of the double omegas will go to the grave with the man who wrote the poem.
                And so it is.
                ΩΩ
                *

                Hey, that seems like a pretty good hint to me!

                Comment


                • Originally posted by CardanoBlockchain View Post
                  Thoughts of "under a canopy of stars" for this area? Are there any cottonwood trees on the south bank?
                  To my knowledge, it's almost exclusively lodgepole pines, both mature and young. Perhaps others know if there are any cottonwoods.

                  A lone tree of any species besides lodgepole would arguably stand out, making an effective blaze. A tree with white bark, such as aspen, would be especially noticeable.

                  "Under a canopy of stars" perplexes me. After all, a tree canopy would shield the chest from the stars in the sky. Do you think "stars" is used figuratively?

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Vertigo View Post

                    To my knowledge, it's almost exclusively lodgepole pines, both mature and young. Perhaps others know if there are any cottonwoods.

                    A lone tree of any species besides lodgepole would arguably stand out, making an effective blaze. A tree with white bark, such as aspen, would be especially noticeable.

                    "Under a canopy of stars" perplexes me. After all, a tree canopy would shield the chest from the stars in the sky. Do you think "stars" is used figuratively?
                    I think it was found in a lodge pole pine forest.
                    The picture of the chest if you look at the needles they come in pairs which is lodge pole pine needles.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Presque vu View Post
                      Click image for larger version Name:	Screenshot_20210501-162659.png Views:	0 Size:	1.11 MB ID:	282031 I think Forrest tells us what to look for as the blaze in this caption..

                      I can't really read the writing (screenshot) but I think you need to watch the trees, after taking this photograph.
                      I think the comma is out of place.
                      The caption says, "Donnie started to look like an untipped waiter and when he leaned a little forward in his saddle and just stared at me, I knew enough to be still and watch the trees, after I took this photograph."

                      So, do you think Forrest is telling us to "be still and watch the trees" in order to find the blaze? (Just making sure I understand your idea correctly.) Thanks

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Vertigo View Post

                        So, do you think Forrest is telling us to "be still and watch the trees" in order to find the blaze? (Just making sure I understand your idea correctly.) Thanks
                        There's a tiny, meaningless stereo-scopic "magic-eye" rendering in the background trees. It's sideways and looks like an arm or something. It's got to be a rabbit hole, but you can see the BG trees look to be photoshopped using the clone tool. Again, I think there's no there there, but you can try to see it if you want.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Hataska View Post

                          There's a tiny, meaningless stereo-scopic "magic-eye" rendering in the background trees. It's sideways and looks like an arm or something. It's got to be a rabbit hole, but you can see the BG trees look to be photoshopped using the clone tool. Again, I think there's no there there, but you can try to see it if you want.
                          Okay, thanks for the info. I have to agree, there's nothing of substance there.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Must Listengood View Post

                            OK, I did do a little more research and I finally found what I was thinking of, but I don't think it's going to convince anyone. There is a hint in the book. It's just a hint, so there's nothing that is definitive about what the hint is. So bear with me a second.

                            Understand, I was convinced for two years that the blaze was Chama Peak (Chama means blaze) at a point that the poem takes you where the peak just sticks up above the horizon and is visible - you have to be at exactly the right spot to see it. What really got me was that I followed the directions of the poem, which was partially based on orienteering directions and I got to that spot. Then I said, OK what could the blaze be. And lo and behold, there is Chama Peak sticking up just above a small hill on the horizon. Move 20 feet to the left, and it disappears. Move 20 feet to the right and its gone. Man, I thought I really had something. I thought the poem was written from the perspective of a pilot - a navigator using landmark and compass directions.

                            Wrong. Apparently it takes (and this really surprised me) an English major to understand the poem. Sure, I also understood the importance of words, but given Forrest's nature and his recurring desire to break the rules, I thought it was more about obscure and old definitions of words, and also what I would call "redneck wordplay." Nope, apparently not. I actually feel a little misled by Forrest about that. And I don't see his pilot navigator instincts showing up either which is also pretty surprising to me. This poem is all about applying good English to the description of a fly fishing trip. That's mostly what I now believe. Really obvious - I'm pretty surprised it wasn't found 5 or 6 years ago.

                            So all of this is a lot simpler than I thought. I was not into big rabbit holes or more obscure associations or ciphers or anagrams. I knew it wasn't like that, but still, it is apparently shockingly simple and obvious. And written in straightforward plain English.

                            So with that in mind, I think the blaze is a mark on a tree, a stump, or a rock, probably carved deeply. I think that mark is an asterisk. I believe TTOTC is telling me its an asterisk. Page 15. Sooner or later our lives are nothing but an asterisk in a book that was never written. Then the page ends in an asterisk after he takes his first few steps.

                            The asterisk is his life. It's also where all the lines come together or cross (themes he discusses). There might even be a "canopy of asterisks" there. But I believe there is an asterisk there which represents his life. The treasure being right there below it.

                            After reading TTOTC and paying close attention to page 15, and his other themes of life and death, which indicate we are all just an asterisk in time, we then have these words from Jack:

                            The relevance of the double omegas will go to the grave with the man who wrote the poem.
                            And so it is.
                            ΩΩ
                            *

                            Hey, that seems like a pretty good hint to me!
                            Yes, I think simple or straightforward is the way to approach the poem. With any problem, if a simple solution can be found, then there's really no need to complicate. It makes sense that if the whole poem is straightforward, then the blaze is as well.

                            If I were to search that section of lodgepole pine forest on the south bank of Nine Mile Hole, I would be looking for one of two things:

                            An untouched rock or tree that distinguishes itself from those in the immediate vicinity. There are large boulders in the river and on the north bank, so there could be another one on the south bank among the pines. A larger than usual lodgepole could be enough of a blaze, as could a single tree of a different species. A rock seems more likely, as it would last longer, but I would be open minded.

                            Click image for larger version

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                            A marked rock or tree, as you've suggested. I don't think it would matter exactly what mark was used, as long as it was recognizable to a TTOTC reader. An asterisk, Forrest's initials, or an omega would do the trick. A marked object would be less subtle than something untouched, but nobody goes to the woods across the river there. The chance of just stumbling onto the blaze is virtually nil.

                            Click image for larger version

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                            A more definite idea of the blaze would be nice, but a systematic search in a relatively small area would probably suffice.

                            Comment


                            • Vertigo I really appreciate the attention and fresh ideas you've brought to this thread. Thank you!

                              Searchers have been to the Nine Mile Hole area and didn't find anything. With the level of confidence that Jack had, I imagine he would have found an out-of-place tree or carving in a tree/rock on the first few visits if it's still that easy to spot. But if the blaze is actually damaged, how would we confirm the final area? The clues should direct to some kind of boundary (or "section of forest" as Jack called it). I'm not certain just putting a 500' radius on Nine Mile Hole will confirm anything without a little more precision from the poem. Maybe the final search area needs a few more spices before it's fully cooked.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by thehomeofBrown.com View Post
                                Vertigo I really appreciate the attention and fresh ideas you've brought to this thread. Thank you!

                                Searchers have been to the Nine Mile Hole area and didn't find anything. With the level of confidence that Jack had, I imagine he would have found an out-of-place tree or carving in a tree/rock on the first few visits if it's still that easy to spot. But if the blaze is actually damaged, how would we confirm the final area? The clues should direct to some kind of boundary (or "section of forest" as Jack called it). I'm not certain just putting a 500' radius on Nine Mile Hole will confirm anything without a little more precision from the poem. Maybe the final search area needs a few more spices before it's fully cooked.
                                I'm all for more precision from the poem, but I don't think it's there. It didn't seem to be there for Jack and he felt that Instructions might have been missing (deliberately removed by Forrest). If this 9 mile hole solve is correct, it's going to be up in the forest not far from the creek/springs. That's still a lot of area, but there's nothing in the poem that would lead you far from there, at least that I can see. It has to be in the "wood". It is not likely to be more than 200 feet from the river, but certainly not more than 500 feet. Jack said he had to imagine what the blaze would have looked like if it wasn't damaged. Maybe after someone goes there and puts out some video, we might understand how to do that.

                                Somebody needs to go there, cross the river, take video up the "creek" and around the area. I'd do it, but my marriage would collapse, so I'll have to hope that someday someone will and put it out there for people to see. Frankly, Rudy, you seem like the perfect guy to do it - you would make an excellent objective narrator of said documentary with all the know-how. But its a pretty big undertaking that few would understand at this point.

                                I really wish I was a bit younger and my wife understood my obsession because I would LOVE to do it.

                                Comment

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