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Dictionary support for Isa Lake as WWWH

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  • Dictionary support for Isa Lake as WWWH

    Forrest said that he looked up words in the poem to know their dictionary definitions, and halt/walk are the only two lines that don’t follow the rhyming scheme. Maybe “walk” up is the more important word and he couldn’t find a word to rhyme with it; but consider whether he really needed “halt”. Merriam-Webster provides the following as one definition of “halt”: “to be in a state of uncertainty or doubt between alternate courses or choices : WAVER.”

    To me, this definition screams Isa Lake. Many/most/nearly all people think that WWWH is where warm waters come to an abrupt stop (e.g., surface of a hot spring, Madison Junction), which in fairness, is one definition of “halt.” But in Isa Lake, warm waters waver between going to the Atlantic or Pacific Oceans, which are “alternate courses or choices.”

    Thoughts? Did Forrest really need “halt” and that’s why that stanza doesn’t rhyme?

  • #2
    It's an interesting idea, basically same as the Continental Divide except a lake actually has halted waters. So it's one better. But, it's cold waters in the lake and cold waters issuing from the lake (into Spring Creek). Now if the Firehole was fed directly by Isa Lake (instead of Spring Creek, a tributary) then we might have the warm part. Even so, the lack of any canyon nearby is probably fatal to this solve.

    Compare to Ice Lake, which feeds directly into the Gibbon River. The Gibbon River would definitely be "warm" to Forrest. No chance those waters fail to halt in Ice Lake.. Moreover, the river enters a canyon ("Norris Canyon") a short distance downstream.

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    • #3
      I'll put this here as it is topical, I haven't seen it mentioned often if ever. Consider the following exchange:

      Dear Forrest,

      You tell us that we should find “where warm waters halt” before trying to solve any of the other clues. Imagining that we haven’t seen the rest of the poem, and all we have to go on is:

      a. “begin it where warm waters halt” and
      b. “somewhere in the mountains north of Santa Fe”

      Do you think that we can confidently determine the starting place for your treasure trail? ~ Steve

      No, if all you have to go on are those two clues you cannot proceed with confidence. Look at it this way. If you were making a cake and you left out a few ingredients, would you achieve your goal?

      Your question reminds me of another: You leave home and walk a straight line for a mile, turn 90 degrees left and walk a curved line for a mile and shoot a bear. Then you turn 90 degrees left again and walk a straight line back to your home. What color is the bear? f
      In the above Forrest says trying to figure out WWWH in isolation is like baking without all the ingredients. Then he tries to drive it home with a version of the bear color riddle that doesn't have an answer. Because it is incomplete. You can take the walk he describes anywhere on Earth so you might encounter any species of bear. In the complete riddle, you walk the same curved line but while constantly facing due east. Of course that is possible only if you are a mile south of the north pole (it also works near the south pole, but there are no bears there) so any bear you shoot on such a walk is going to be a white (or whitish) polar bear. Or if you assume that only Santa Claus can live at the north pole, then the answer is a teddy bear.

      This is actually the same as the "how deep is a hole" and "how long is a string" refrains. Not enough information to provide an answer.

      So with all of these suggestions what Forrest is trying to tell is that we are not looking for WWWH. We are looking for WWWH next to a canyon.

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      • #4
        Halt also means walk with a limp. Which is too far to walk? I wouldn’t see that as a steady pace...but that’s me.
        Last edited by DanNun; 04-01-2021, 10:00 PM.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by DanNun View Post
          Halt also means walk with a limp. Which is too far to walk? I wouldn’t see that as a steady pace...but that’s me.
          Halting waters could be those that exit a gradient into a meadow turning rapids into a lazy meander. And those gentle waters could be "warm" if we consider how comfortable it is to wade in them (e.g. while fishing for trout). And wading is certainly a type of walk that one might describe as a halt.

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          • #6
            WhiteOak141 You make a good justification for Isa being a place where waters halt, but I don't see why those waters would be warm. That seems relevant to Forrest's solution.

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            • #7
              I felt that Halt was the key word to understanding WWWH and one of the few hints in TTOC that Forrest was giving us. It appears only one time in his book, and therefore, it seemed wise to understand the definition that Forrest was using in the book. He seemed to go out of his way to include it in the book and in the Stout Hearted Men chapter. We have recordings of him telling his story about going to A&M with his friends and finally getting "caught" after a couple of weeks and he had to make a quick exit. Never in those instances did he tell the story like he did in the book. In the book, he made a point to include the Romberg song (not an A&M song) which has the word halt, and goes into detail about how the man in the A&M truck was unaffected by Forrest's tears and just drove off when he said he had no money - a "stout hearted man". The whole chapter title along with the man being unaffected by Forrest's tears seemed to be a deliberate hint, as he brought those things to the forefront for the telling of the story in the book.

              So, those things meant the following to me:
              1. The word halt is important, this is the only place in his book it is used, and the meaning we are looking for is to "weaken" or "falter". In the song, it is similar to the word "mar" as in "halt or mar a plan". Falter is one definition of halt.
              2. Forrest showed "weakness" while the A&M truck guy was stout hearted. Forrest had tears in his eyes and is disposition "faltered".
              3. Putting these things together, the answer to where warm waters halt is "The Eyes". It is where warm waters falter or show weakness.

              Given the things Forrest has said to searchers (some of which many of us were unaware until recently), it is clear that WWWH is a place that has warm (or comfortable) water. It is clear that warm water is a requirement. I always felt that "The Eyes" or "tears" is also a hint to that same spot. So I found a spot like that in NM, which was clearly wrong.

              But what about in Wyoming?

              The problem with Isa lake to me is that I don't believe it has warm water, or is a place where warm water halts. I have never dipped my toe in Isa lake, but even if it is warm (or comfortable), the water flows out of it both sides of the divide, right? So how does it halt? I see your idea of "waver" as the definition. I think that is clever thinking, but I also don't see the relationship to "the eyes" or "tears" that Forrest seemed to be hinting at in his book.

              However, I would point out that Ojo Caliente in Yellowstone on the Firehole river does indeed meet that criteria since Ojo means eye. And if you are into the GPS solve, it could work for that too.

              Could Isa lake be the HOB? That seems more likely to me. But the more I think about your "waver" idea, the more I am intrigued by it. Could that definition fit the Romberg song "halt or mar a plan" as in waver the course of the plan, weaken the plan? I suppose "waver" or "indecision" is a possible interpretation, so I am going to ponder that. Thanks for the post about it.

              It seems there should be about ten miles between WWWH and the HOB and you have to drive between the two on a road that goes down a canyon. That actually reduces the number of possible places quite a bit.

              So I am still looking for a WWWH that is in a canyon next to a road that goes for miles where there is warm water, some kind of transition, and some relation to "the eyes" or "tears". The water at WWWH has to be accessible so that you can test it to see if it is warm and where it transitions. Those are requirements.
              Last edited by Must Listengood; 04-01-2021, 11:10 PM.

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              • #8
                Are you Listening Good MLG? Your eyes may be on to something...

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by thehomeofBrown.com View Post
                  WhiteOak141 You make a good justification for Isa being a place where waters halt, but I don't see why those waters would be warm. That seems relevant to Forrest's solution.
                  Thanks thehomeofBrown.com. The waters would be “warm” because the Atlantic Ocean typically is considered “warm” and the Pacific Ocean “cold.” See https://www.almanac.com/fact/is-the-...armer-than-the. The warm waters of the Atlantic are wavering at Isa Lake for which direction to go.

                  I guess the flaw is that some water in Isa Lake ultimately becomes cold water because it runs to the Pacific. And of course, this is all just spitballing. But, it is interesting about halt/walk not rhyming and why.

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                  • #10
                    Halt-walk with a limp
                    Not far but too far to walk
                    Paddle-walk with bare feet in shallow water...

                    walk walk walk walk walk I’m going crazy!

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by WhiteOak141 View Post

                      Thanks thehomeofBrown.com. The waters would be “warm” because the Atlantic Ocean typically is considered “warm” and the Pacific Ocean “cold.” See https://www.almanac.com/fact/is-the-...armer-than-the. The warm waters of the Atlantic are wavering at Isa Lake for which direction to go.

                      I guess the flaw is that some water in Isa Lake ultimately becomes cold water because it runs to the Pacific. And of course, this is all just spitballing. But, it is interesting about halt/walk not rhyming and why.
                      No the Atlantic is not considered "warm". Maybe the Gulf of Mexico (and Gulf Stream). On a particular river you can have "warm waters" which is where you find warm water fish and then further upstream where the waters become COLD you can have "trout waters". Isa Lake flows to streams that are COLD trout waters although as I pointed the Firehole is downstream a few miles. So that confluence would be a viable WWWH but not Isa Lake itself.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Tornado View Post
                        Are you Listening Good MLG? Your eyes may be on to something...
                        You mean "Isa" lake sounds like eyes a lake? Another good observation. Listening good did not seem to help me though, - I guess I'm no good at it.

                        If we were to start at Isa lake, I would want to go ten miles down a canyon from there to get to the HOB. Lewis lake boat put-in? The canyon between Lewis lake and Shoshone lake is some of the best brown trout fishing there is and Lewis channel is where they spawn -the HOB perhaps?

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                        • #13
                          mr. Fenn was free of falsehoods. He simply streeetched the truth. It was our job to sift through TTOTC to find where he prevaricated. I believe we are to use the most archaic of definitions to solve the poem and let it breathe.
                          His 'Team' was the linchpin of his infinite everything. His ever intumescing 'Team' needed to be sanctified. And so he was indefatigable, unabating and steadfast in his quest to repay the Great Mystery of the beyond for his treasured gift. and thus the ineffability of the chase became undefinable
                          2 sum up...Indulgence equals satisfying his covenant .

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                          • #14
                            Halt “AND” Take
                            halt/take=
                            That Lake

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Must Listengood View Post

                              You mean "Isa" lake sounds like eyes a lake? Another good observation. Listening good did not seem to help me though, - I guess I'm no good at it.

                              If we were to start at Isa lake, I would want to go ten miles down a canyon from there to get to the HOB. Lewis lake boat put-in? The canyon between Lewis lake and Shoshone lake is some of the best brown trout fishing there is and Lewis channel is where they spawn -the HOB perhaps?
                              Mr Good..
                              You have my ear. could you please return it? I look silly with just one ear.
                              Billy 1f

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