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The Missing Method

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  • #61
    Originally posted by CRM114 View Post

    Fair point. Creative must be taken in context with the allowable search space. By creative, I mean a combination of imagination and high coincidence level - perhaps I should use clever instead. My opinion of a good solve is one that has 9 precise locations that can be derived from specific lines in the poem simply using the words and homophones and maybe some other simple tricks). Taken together consequtively, they are so coincidental, they are self-evidently correct. The simpler the methodology used to get there, the better. Complexity (anagrams, try the Wheel, etc.) are imaginative but they expand the search space significantly and require much larger amounts of coincidence to pass muster.
    I think the problem with the simple solves I've seen (and I'd include mine) is that they don't have enough of the 'confirmer' kind of detail. They mostly stick to just 9 clues that work, pretty nicely, in their simple way. But just 9 clues. The lesser lines, Eg. worth the cold, alone in there, etc. get ignored, or have some slight fit, or are taken at face value.

    But I think the poem's answer should be simple but also interesting and complex, because in the real solve every single line must surely say something and add to the reveal of the location. There shouldn't be one line that doesn't add meaning or a confirmation of the answer. To do that, in a subtle way, in a simple solve, would take a lot of smart thinking from Fenn.

    So I'm pretty sure I haven't read anything close to the real solve yet. He spent 15 years getting every line right, like an architect. I can't trust any solve that doesn't fit every line elegantly. So I think I haven't seen the true solve yet. The simple solves are nice, but for me if they can't explain every line then they're being too simple. It's like saying you have the answer to 2.2 + 2.3 with a 4.

    The people who have more complex solves tend to work out every detail for every line, as well as working on lots of stuff outside the poem. And perhaps that helps them get invested in their solve, and so they feel the poem is really working for them... But it reminds me of someone creating a painting of a rose by working on layer after layer of paint, spending hours on every new layer, and if you look at it in the right way it will be a beautiful abstract flower... But a simple line drawing will more clearly and perfectly express a rose.

    But I guess I just like simple things. They just have to be simple and right.


    • #62
      Remember that he always said that no one would know for sure they had the right solve unless they had the chest. That highly implies a solution that can not be precise and provable, but more a matter of simply finding the correct interpretation.


      • #63
        Originally posted by Must Listengood View Post
        I have always believed in the wordplay and orienteering method and I still do, but clearly my methods are now in question. I look forward to learning the correct method. If it is not wordplay and orienteering, I will be very disappointed and feel like I shouldn't have even tried.
        I totally get that feeling, especially in light of the Mr. Clue fiasco. It's entirely possible that the Fenn puzzle was just so poorly constructed that you never would've expected yourself to have solved it in a million years.

        *But*... He did specifically point out that "thinking outside the box" and "knowledge of magnetic declination" weren't going to help you. So if it turns out that wordplay and orienteering weren't the keys to unraveling this mystery, you shouldn't really be surprised if that actually turns out to be the case, because that's what he told you right out in the open.



        • #64
          Originally posted by Omni View Post
          Remember that he always said that no one would know for sure they had the right solve unless they had the chest. That highly implies a solution that can not be precise and provable, but more a matter of simply finding the correct interpretation.
          This is one of two major fallacies that searchers glommed onto that kept them from solving the poem.


          • #65
            Originally posted by JHSharp View Post
            I’m a competitive person, and have always loved matching wits, skill, creativity, (anything!) with others. Always (of course with a few exceptions) in good competitive spirit. Occasionally, this desire to compete is a switch I find difficult to turn off. Sometimes you win. Sometimes you lose. Sometimes it rains.

            However, I have reached the conclusion that the Chase is something altogether different. It is sort of like when you would fight with a brother or sister when you were younger. One second you’re seriously fighting each other with a mop and a broomstick, but somewhere along the way it turns into a Looney Tunes style ballet, and you realize you’ve stopped hitting, and instead are doing goofy things with the mop and laughing. It wasn’t a conscious decision, it just became more fun to ballet.

            After reading the WY announcement, I realized it was not a competition anymore. It was a ballet moment. That’s not giving up; it was more like getting on. I thought a long time about whether to write this, and my heart told me Noone wouldn’t mind. I felt like we were navigating beyond the borders of the map, and I hope my intuition is right. But, to paraphrase an old HoR friend’s favorite band, The Song (for me) Remains the Same. I’ll never reveal my spot unless Someone wants me to.

            I don’t know what to make of WY, and I believe FF. I will say that if someone told me the treasure was found in Wyoming, I can think of at least one logical way that it could also be found in another state at the same time. Specifically, a small part of Wyoming (the far western part- the area around Wy). The state of Wyoming? Different story. But, I never considered Wyoming as the most likely state, because there seems to be little opportunity for a strong prestige there. A magician wouldn’t point his patter toward the magical event and expect a good reaction, would be?

            Anyway, the state debate seems like the wrong song for these days of craze. And it seems there is a piece missing from what appears to be a “cold case.“ That piece is the method. Forget the state or the clues or the hints for a second. The METHOD. We’ve seen anagrams. We’ve seen counting. We’ve seen historical. We’ve seen biographical. We’ve seen themed solves. Grid approaches. Every question in life may not be solvable, but a method can devised to try.

            If someone solved this, their solve has to be unique enough that it sets their location apart. And with the right choice of method, it is likely that more than one person would have produced a similar viable solution, and probably faster than 9 years. Mirror solves are possible, perhaps, with one spot being a “body double”... but I think the real difference isn’t the clues, though they must be solved- it is the manner and timing of their activation. What method would not just give you a solve... but 1) a very precise solve (to a few steps away) that leads to 2) a quite unexpected spot which is 3) unlike any other? Numerical work can’t do that, except for the math that is fundamental to nature. The nature of the word “solve” is a trap of its own. Solving means X-hunting. IMO the poem can’t be solved because the solution was undefined- at least, as algebraic thinking goes. But it can lead a searcher somewhere specific.

            I believe in the truth of FF’s statements.

            I believe the word that is key is in the poem, and that this word tells you what to do, when, and where. It defines the correct method.

            I believe you need a good treasure map. I’ve never seen a Rand McNally or Delorme treasure map.

            I believe New Mexico was overlooked, when it deserved to be underlayed.

            I believe the solver would have had to learn to do many things just as FF did them. Want to know someone? Walk in their shoes a little.

            I believe Dizzy Dean was a pitcher.

            I believe there is a method out there.

            I can’t believe the solver could have reasonably solved without it.

            What method is missing?
            Sharp I have struggled with the word that was key too. I came to think it was listen but there were other words important to the deeper meaning, like tired, weak and meek. Each layer to me had a key turn of a word or a phrase. I don't know for sure but I suspect you have to learn a pirouette to ballet.

            All in all I bet the catchers were happy to recieve the pitch. I missed the games on opening day but I am be able to catch one soon. It'll be interesting without the fans and maybe I'll listen to one on the AM outside with some Pinion smoke. My guy in my youth was Brooks Robinson....did you know that when he retired they gave him a vacuum cleaner on the field?


            • #66
              Originally posted by Anna Graham View Post
              Originally posted by Fenn

              Some searchers overrate the complexity of the search. Knowing about head pressures, foot pounds, acre feet, bible verses, Latin, cubic inches, icons, fonts, charts, graphs, formulas, curved lines, magnetic variation, codes, depth meters, riddles, drones or ciphers, will not assist anyone to the treasure location, although those things have been offered as positive solutions. Excellent research materials are TTOTC, Google Earth,

              Where do you see him rule out anagrams? I dont see the word anagram in that list.
              I never saw Fenn rule out anagrams, circular slide rules, tea leaves, tarot cards, Morse code, Scrabble, Dreidel, or Dominoes (although he may occasionally enjoy a nice hot piece of Pizza).


              • #67
                Originally posted by Angus_beef40 View Post

                You set 'em up, I'll knock 'en down!

                Edit: Thanks slashy! I enjoy reading your level-headed posts, as well. Although, I don't think either of us will get thru to anyone..

                You know if forrest said verbatim, "the poem is not an anagram" Anna and her type would be like, "that anagrams to 'the poem is an anagram, ton!'".
                I don't suggest that you tease any individual -- or their type -- too much. But the horses they rode in on are probably not very sensitive to written teasing.


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Goldilocks View Post
                  Taking Forrest's words at face value, literally and simply would yield infinite possibilities. Please tell me how all of you "simple" people narrowed down the location? You had to have subjectively interpreted his words at some point.
                  Not infinite. Indefinite, perhaps. Am I the only one here who is friends with a dictionary instead of a fictionary (not to mention a FRICTIONARY)?


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Goldilocks View Post
                    Taking Forrest's words at face value, literally and simply would yield infinite possibilities. Please tell me how all of you "simple" people narrowed down the location? You had to have subjectively interpreted his words at some point.
                    One clue at a time, with help from a dictionary, mapquest, and google earth . . . interspersed with a few search trips, including BOTG hiking (along the same creek each thyme).


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by CRM114 View Post

                      I don't think Forrest has to be a genius savant to do what he did. He simply used an above-average innate talent and thought a about it for a long time - 15 years, supposedly. I think he is ENTP, a personality type that is highly intuitive. They look at the big picture and can notice odd relationships between unrelated things. He also notices small details or aberrations. You can see this through his writings. This gives insight as to how the puzzle works.

                      As far as making it difficult, it's relatively easy, imo. The poem is consecutive, from everything he's told us. You cannot start in the middle. You have 9 hurdles to clear and each one likely takes new thinking. We know the finder communicated with him in 2018, and forrest was "monitoring" emails from one or more people. The "gut feeling" was in 2018 and maybe that indicates the finder was close. Yet it still took two years. This is evidence to me of the clues as individual hurdles. This is quite different than pattern matching geographic features (lotto).

                      Forrest must maintain a balance between too self-evident and too vague under my hurdle theory or its simply unfindable. The hurdles give him flexibility though. People get stuck. He told us multiple people solved the first two clues. Maybe they gave up because they were not sure or they were sure but simply could not clear hurdle 3. Yet our finder struggled for at least 2 years with a partial solve, imo. He must have had something to fuel his persistence. Forrest has told us well say (paraphrasing) "why didn't I think of that?" It all points to the solution being self-evident, imo.
                      The solution wasn't self-evident, any more than a book could write itself.


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by GoSlash27 View Post

                        5-leaf Blaze , If a half a dozen different people are all telling the same thing, they might have a point. Again, I've never considered you to be a "psycho", but I do believe you have 'issues'. You don't have to be a mechanic to recognize when a car ain't runnin' right.
                        And I know you're going to claim that we're all the same person, but we're not. You could have kpro check out our IP addresses if you wanted to... But you won't. I think it's because you're afraid of the answer she'll give you: All different people from all over the country.
                        If someone is already angry with me, I don't continue to provoke them. Hmm.


                        • #72
                          What method is missing?[/QUOTE]
                          I'm new to the forum and dont know what methods have been discussed or tried over the years. What about a straight-up word puzzle since it was written by a wordsmith who always chooses every word carefully? I enjoy word puzzles and I feel I had a pretty solid Wyoming solve by using not-so-common definitions straight out of Merriam-Webster to his 'simple words' in his poem. He stated that his poem LOOKS like 'simple words'

                          Also, my solve started fairly remotely and ended within a reasonable distance from a trail head parking area in Yellowstone. Did Fenn ever say if HE definitely started hiking to hide the treasure from the POEM's starting point or could he have used a back door close to the end of a trail he described in his poem?

                          My apologies if this is the 1000th time something like this has been brought up! I'd also post a link to my solve to explain better what I was talking about unless nobody posts theirs. Once to the forum!!
                          Last edited by hoosierdaddy; 07-24-2020, 10:25 PM.


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by GoSlash27 View Post

                            I hope I haven't treated anyone with a complicated solve unfairly. My disagreement is really more with people "deciphering" statements into things he never said and trying to come up with reasons why the treasure wasn't in Wyoming when he said it was.

                            I believe that the "treasure" may have been in Wyoming for a while. I don't believe that the bronze chest I seek, containing more than 10 pounds of gold, sat outside in Wyoming for more than 8 years, and was later found and carried for its first time in years by a man who had never before met Forrest Fenn. It may get more and more challenging to mislead while being truthful, but I believe that FF hasn't yet run out of "tricks up his sleeve".


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by deano View Post
                              regarding the exact final search area size, I ask myself why would you need the blaze? (not least how do you know what it is)
                              It's good to ask that, as it encourages you to seek the answer (which is important). Good luck if you're still trying to achieve a correct solve of the poem. If you're not, can you recommend a good brand of goatskin gloves to wear while handling ivy? Its little needles go right through my (non-goatskin) leather gloves.
                              Last edited by Old Pilot; 07-26-2020, 06:07 PM.


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by GoSlash27 View Post

                                In my solve, the "blaze" acts as sort of a beacon. If I'm walking along a line toward the beacon, and it suddenly pops into view, then that intersection of 2 lines defines a point rather than an area.

                                This is what I interpreted "if you have been wise" to mean; it's not enough to merely find the blaze. You have to approach it along the correct line.

                                Do you mean a geometric (straight) line, or something more like a ticket line (of people) that may "stretch" around the corner of a building?