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TREASURE TROVE - USDA RULES

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  • TREASURE TROVE - USDA RULES

    While watching the Kpro Cow Marathon tonight there was a meltdown of ownership status talk involving Forrest hidden Treasure. It ended with talk of US Forest Service requires a permit for hiding Treasure Troves. That is not correct. The permit is for searching for Treasure Trove. Here is their definition of Treasure Trove.

    https://www.fs.usda.gov/wps/portal/f...fsbdev3_018726
    Treasure Trove Hunting

    " A treasure trove is defined as money, gems, or precious worked metal (in the form of coins, plate, bullion, etc.) of unknown ownership. Not included are recent vintage coins, locatable minerals, or archeological resources and specimens. Searching for such treasure must be authorized by a permit. Applications for Treasure Trove Permits are evaluated on a case-by-case basis; approval requires that evidence of treasure is of such a character that a person of ordinary prudence would be justified in the expenditure of labor and funds, with a reasonable possibility of success. Permits are issued for a specific number of days and the site is subject to inspection. "

  • #2
    Originally posted by TreasureCodex View Post
    While watching the Kpro Cow Marathon tonight there was a meltdown of ownership status talk involving Forrest hidden Treasure. It ended with talk of US Forest Service requires a permit for hiding Treasure Troves. That is not correct. The permit is for searching for Treasure Trove. Here is their definition of Treasure Trove.

    https://www.fs.usda.gov/wps/portal/f...fsbdev3_018726
    Treasure Trove Hunting

    " A treasure trove is defined as money, gems, or precious worked metal (in the form of coins, plate, bullion, etc.) of unknown ownership. Not included are recent vintage coins, locatable minerals, or archeological resources and specimens. Searching for such treasure must be authorized by a permit. Applications for Treasure Trove Permits are evaluated on a case-by-case basis; approval requires that evidence of treasure is of such a character that a person of ordinary prudence would be justified in the expenditure of labor and funds, with a reasonable possibility of success. Permits are issued for a specific number of days and the site is subject to inspection. "
    It is also worth noting that this does not apply to Forrest Fenn's treasure, since its ownership is not in question.
    Active solves: 1 Abandoned solves: 0 Search state: NM Search trips: 6 Days spent BotG: 24

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    • #3
      Originally posted by M E H View Post

      It is also worth noting that this does not apply to Forrest Fenn's treasure, since its ownership is not in question.
      My feelings too. In the poem Fenn refers to "my treasures," and "my trove". And, in the last line he seems to be giving away the title to the finder, again implying his current ownership. I have previously wondered why he labels it a "trove". I could be wrong, but it seems not only to be a part of the definition used by the Forest Service, but an essential part of the more general legal definition of a "trove," that there is no known owner of a "trove".
      Last edited by Bob823; 06-16-2019, 06:54 AM.

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      • #4
        I might be wrong on this. But if I found the treasure while Forresst is alive. I would tell him exactly where HIS treasure chest is. And ask him if he would like to trade his old ugly chest that is really heavy but I don't know what's in it. For a gorgeous terquios bracele I found recently. I'm pretty sure I don't need to pay taxes on a $300 find. I'm sure he would take the deal. I'm guessing that bracelet would fiit him good. The treasures are really worth nothing until you sell or trade them. Just like art. It's kind of like finding a Van Gogh at a rummage sale for $15. Just because one person sold you something without KNOWLEGE. Doesn't make it illegal. Or instantly taxable since you now own it. Just my thoughts. If it saves some a million dollars plus in taxes and lawyers. I would like the gold frog for my son. And if I'm wrong. It doesn't matter. Because I don't think I'll have to worry about that.

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        • #5
          Thank you for the info.... So basically once he dies and it meets Trove status..... If in a national Forrest.... You must have a permit and you must revel your solve to obtain that permit.... ff would not have placed it is a National Forest.... Look to me that the likelihood of it being in NM just increased!

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          • #6
            https://www.theatlantic.com/technolo...l-park/405865/

            Is it possible that Fenn or a trustee of Fenn owns private property within a national park or forest? If the TC is on property owned or controlled by Fenn then one might ask, ”What if there is no legal question?,” which I believe Fenn once did. Why is this not possible?

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Coinaster View Post
              Thank you for the info.... So basically once he dies and it meets Trove status..... If in a national Forrest.... You must have a permit and you must revel your solve to obtain that permit.... ff would not have placed it is a National Forest.... Look to me that the likelihood of it being in NM just increased!
              No, the ownership would still be certain. He ceded ownership to the one who finds it while he was still alive.

              Sounds to me like this "Trove Permit" stuff is just there to make it easier for the government to seize assets. I heard about a large cache of lost gold bars being found buried in a cave, and the finders were denied the permission to dig it up.

              I do feel that the chest must be on public lands though.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Bob823 View Post
                https://www.theatlantic.com/technolo...l-park/405865/

                Is it possible that Fenn or a trustee of Fenn owns private property within a national park or forest? If the TC is on property owned or controlled by Fenn then one might ask, ”What if there is no legal question?,” which I believe Fenn once did. Why is this not possible?
                I have thought about this but discarded the idea as unlikely. It's not easy to get land in these areas with reservations etc. all around, and I'm pretty sure ff has discouraged searching private land without permission before. If this was how ff had done things, the chest would also be traceable, not only via the poem, but through the documentation of the plot (if someone knew what they were doing sifting through land ownership records).

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Jackrabbit View Post

                  I have thought about this but discarded the idea as unlikely. It's not easy to get land in these areas with reservations etc. all around, and I'm pretty sure ff has discouraged searching private land without permission before. If this was how ff had done things, the chest would also be traceable, not only via the poem, but through the documentation of the plot (if someone knew what they were doing sifting through land ownership records).
                  I agree. But if Fenn used a lawyer and a trustee, if the private property is not in Fenn's own name, it might be quite hard to trace the ownership. No? And there are private owners, some being rich guys, who own private land in national parks and may legally, to the best of my knowledge, sell a part of it to Fenn. Furthermore, if Fenn controls it then it seems possible that it is not posted or identified as private property. I can't entirely dismiss the possibility yet.
                  Last edited by Bob823; 06-16-2019, 10:44 AM.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by M E H View Post

                    It is also worth noting that this does not apply to Forrest Fenn's treasure, since its ownership is not in question.
                    That would be what "unknown ownership" relates to.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Bob823 View Post

                      I agree. But if Fenn used a lawyer and a trustee, if the private property is not in Fenn's own name, it might be quite hard to trace the ownership. No? And there are private owners, some being rich guys, who own private land in national parks and may legally, to the best of my knowledge, sell a part of it to Fenn. Furthermore, if Fenn controls it then it seems possible that it is not posted or identified as private property. I can't entirely dismiss the possibility yet.
                      I'm not even saying it is on USDA land, just responding to what was stated in Marathon as I don't think society is done justice by the spreading of bad information. There was another guest that insisted he knew the treasure had a gift tax attached to it. And he was not getting challenged in his assumption. I do believe there is a "grantor" (Forrest), trustee (lawyer) and beneficiaries (Collected Works Bookstore , Cancer Fund and Treasure Finder) and they are all part of an Irrevocable Trust. Does anyone think Forrest would not only give Collected Works 1.4 million worth of books and also pay a gift tax on top of that ? Well he isn't gonna pay a gift tax on the treasure either. That would be foolish and Forrest is surely not that. An Irrevocable Trust gets rid of the tax issues for Forrest and gives the Treasure Finder a step at which the finder may use to figure their tax implications upon selling any of the treasure.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Jackrabbit View Post

                        I have thought about this but discarded the idea as unlikely. It's not easy to get land in these areas with reservations etc. all around, and I'm pretty sure ff has discouraged searching private land without permission before. If this was how ff had done things, the chest would also be traceable, not only via the poem, but through the documentation of the plot (if someone knew what they were doing sifting through land ownership records).
                        If a person wants to hide land ownership it is not that difficult using a Trust. The lawyer would know

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                        • #13
                          Maybe one of you is interested in joining forces for a dig in Wyoming?, I posted earlier detailing it, you would have to visit and dig the site but get 50/50

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Dibbler View Post
                            Maybe one of you is interested in joining forces for a dig in Wyoming?, I posted earlier detailing it, you would have to visit and dig the site but get 50/50
                            I don't search for armchair researchers. Searching internet is cheap. Travelling is expensive.

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                            • #15
                              That's fair enough, ill count you out then

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